Posted on 11/16/2014 1:42:01 PM PST by NYer
I will not drink from henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I shall drink it with you new in the kingdom of my Father (Matthew 26:29)Amen I say to thee, this day thou shalt be with me in paradise (Luke 23:43)
they that will become rich, fall into temptation, and into the snare of the devil, and into many unprofitable and hurtful desires, which drown men into destruction and perdition. (1 Timothy 6:9)
Hopefully, others see this blatant contradiction. If our good works, things we do, do not save us and it is by grace through faith that we are saved, then how can salvation be lost based on something we have done? Either we are saved by grace or we are saved by works. Scripture is clear that it cannot be both as they cancel each other out.
You already answered that question in your quote from Revelation 20:4, "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Obviously, some people are in heaven!
So, my suffering in Purgatory is making reparations to the person I offended how??? God is getting even with me for something I did wrong? Where does His forgiveness factor in? Forgiving someone is giving up my right to get even with them. When God forgives, He doesn't keep reminding us of our faults. As far as the east is from the west, so far has He removed our sins from us. Now where there is forgiveness of sins, there is no longer any offering for sin. Jesus paid our penalty for our sins, he took the "getting even with" in our place. There is no need for a "stay" in Purgatory since Jesus Christ is our place of cleansing/purgation.
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1:12,13)
There isn't "punishment" but a loss of "rewards". What these rewards are, we don't have much to go on, but I think there will be some regret and sorrow over what we could have accomplished for Christ and didn't because of our own wrong motives. There WILL come a time, though, that God will wipe away every tear from our eyes and the former things will be done away with, never to be remembered again. Whatever "crowns" we are given, we cast in the end at the feet of Jesus and proclaim, "Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created." (Rev. 4:10,11)
We Catholics believe that Purgatory exists. This is not merely my “interpretation”.
I have not told anyone where he must go either before or after death, and you are free to believe what your particular denomination proclaims.
It can't be an *interpretation* from Scripture because Scripture does not teach it.
The Catholic church is teaching as truth, something with no basis, with no Scriptural support. You certainly are free to believe what you want. Nobody said you weren't.
However, there is no such thing as purgatory as God did not tell us that it exists and that sin must be purged there.
He has revealed to us in Scripture everything that is needed for life and godliness and has given us great and precious promises and that is for forgiveness and life, not bondage and suffering and torment to try to pay for our sins.
Suffering doesn't cleanse us from anything anyway because without the shedding of blood, there is NO forgiveness of sins. Your sins cannot be cleansed by any other means, no matter how long a time you spend in torment in purgatory.
Paul tells us in that for born again believers, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Born again believers are in the presence of Jesus. Unbelievers go to hell.
2 Corinthians 5:1-10 For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling, if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked. For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.
that's putting it mildly.
No one is called out of Purgatory and sent to heaven by the Catholic Church. Each person’s individual life history defines their length of time to stay in Purgatory and be purged of all sin by making reparations that they did not do on earth.
this is nonsense....all of our sins have already been paid for and covered by Christ.
Romans 4:1-8
1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found?
2For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
3For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.”
4Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
5But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
6just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7“BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED.
8“BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT.”
The process of being declared a saint is a four step process: being pronounced a person of goodness (Servant of God), venerable (approved for study into the matter of sainthood), blessed (beatified), saint (canonized). Nope....if you are saved, that is a believer in Christ, you are already a saint.
There isn't a separate class of saints.
Paul writes in Philippians 4:22...all the saints greet you....
There are other places where Christians are called saints.
It is my prayer that all come out of the false teachings of catholicism and embrace Christianity.
paul writes of the cleansing, as if by fire, and you will be tested, and, the perishable will be burnt. Jesus also tells us as if youwere in prison, and your sentence needs to be paid, in order for you to leave.
philippians ststes very clearly that “ work out you salvation in fear and trembling”, also.”run the race until the very end”. both clearly state that there is no one time acceptance of Jesus as an assurance of salvation.
one cannot diein an absolute state of grace, one would have some small sins at least ( a just man sins sevens times daily ), and you have to be in perfect grace to see God.
uh....Paul disagrees. btw..if caths believe you sin at least seven times a day, you best be living with the priest so you can confess on a daily, if not hourly basis. good thing Christianity has already taken care of that with Christ's sacrifice on the cross for ALL of our sins.
Romans 4:7-8
7“BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED.
8“BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT.”
That scripture does not say that anyone is presently in heaven.
In fact it plainly describes a future time, after the last trump, at the first resurrection, the beginning of the millennial reign.
John 3:13 prevails.
Nobody is in heaven, nobody is in hell.
.
No, it does not square with anything the catholic ‘church’ teaches.
And, the kingdom that Yeshua speaks of is not heaven, but here on Earth, at the beginning of his millennial reign.
The first person to go to hell will be 1000 years later.
.
1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607 (954, 1472)
1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture:
“Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.”609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead: (958, 1371, 1479)
There are further teachings about "indulgences", which is the doctrine that the "Treasury of Merit" - all the good works of "Saints" are stored up and ready to be credited to the account of those in Purgatory to hasten their time there (this was one of the main abuses of the Catholic church that prompted Luthers 95 Theses):
Obtaining indulgence from God through the Church
1478 An indulgence is obtained through the Church who, by virtue of the power of binding and loosing granted her by Christ Jesus, intervenes in favor of individual Christians and opens for them the treasury of the merits of Christ and the saints to obtain from the Father of mercies the remission of the temporal punishments due for their sins. Thus the Church does not want simply to come to the aid of these Christians, but also to spur them to works of devotion, penance, and charity.90 (981)
1479 Since the faithful departed now being purified are also members of the same communion of saints, one way we can help them is to obtain indulgences for them, so that the temporal punishments due for their sins may be remitted. (1032)
>> philippians ststes very clearly that “ work out you salvation in fear and trembling” <<
.
That ‘working out’ is not in Purgatory, it is here on Earth.
.
>> also.”run the race until the very end”. both clearly state that there is no one time acceptance of Jesus as an assurance of salvation. <<
.
Our ‘assurance’ comes not from the Biblically non-existent ‘sinner’s prayer,’ but from our knowledge that we are faithfully keeping his commandments, and from the knowledge that he and he alone has paid the price for the sins we committed prior to our mikva. Hebrews 6 explains what happens to those that later turn from that faith.
Forgiveness is forgiveness.
Attaining heaven isn't a matter of being *in* or *out* of God's grace.
We live and die in God's grace. Every breath we take is by His grace.
Where sin abounds, grace much more abounds. We are made worthy of heaven by God's grace, but we enter because we're forgiven, the record of debt that stood against us has been canceled. There's no such thing as being out of God's grace.
We are not *imperfectly purified*.
We have the righteousness of Christ credited to our account. We are as pure as we need to be.
Those who are born again, born of the Spirit, have a NEW nature, one that does not sin. When the body of flesh dies, all that is left is the perfected in Christ new nature.
We don’t take the flesh with us so there’s no need for cleansing from it.
You certainly have the right to believe whatever you want, but I disagree with you. Who were those gathered around the throne spoken of in Revelation 4? They were there BEFORE the final judgment. Who was Jesus speaking of when he taught about the beggar Lazarus and the rich man who both died? One was in paradise/Abraham's bosom and the other in torment. Where did Jesus tell the thief on the cross beside him he would take him THAT day? Where are the souls and spirits of those who have died in God's grace or those who died in rejection of it? What did Paul mean when he spoke of preferring to be absent from the body and present with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:6,8)? There are a whole host of Bible passages (OT & NT) that speak of consciousness in heaven right now - though souls will receive glorified bodies at the coming of Jesus Christ. Unless you ignore them or allegorize them all, you really don't have Biblical support for asserting, "Nobody is in heaven, nobody is in hell.".
Let's not snippet hunt to try to prove something so essential to the Christian faith as eternal destiny. Here is the context for John 3:13. Jesus is speaking to Nicodemus:
We must ask what Jesus meant by saying no one has gone into heaven but Himself. There are passages in the Old Testament that use this phrase such as:
Paul goes into the explanation further in Ephesians:
But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. This is why it says:
“When he ascended on high, he took many captives and gave gifts to his people.”
(What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. (Eph. 4:7-13)
Psalm 68:18 is referred to here by Paul:
Gill's Exposition of the Bible does a good job of explaining the meaning behind this:
when he ascended up on high; which is not to be understood of Moses's ascending up to the firmament at the giving of the law, as some Jewish writers (q) interpret it; for though Moses ascended to the top of Mount Sinai, yet it is never said that he went up to the firmament of heaven; nor of David's going up to the high fortresses of his enemies, as another of those writers (r) would have it; nor of God's ascent from Mount Sinai, when he gave the law, of which there is no mention in Scripture; but of the Messiah's ascension to heaven, which may very well be signified by this phrase, "on high"; see Psalm 102:19, and which ascension is to be taken not in a figurative, but literal sense, and as real, local, and visible, as Christ's ascension to heaven was; being from Mount Olivet, attended by angels, in the sight of his apostles, after he had conversed with them from the time of his resurrection forty days; and which ascension of his was in order to fulfil the type of the high priest entering into the most holy place; and to make intercession for his people, and to send down the Spirit with his gifts and graces to them, and to make way and prepare mansions of glory for them, and receive the glory promised and due to him: in the Hebrew text it is, "thou hast ascended"; there the psalmist speaks to the Messiah, here the apostle speaks of him; though the Arabic and Ethiopic read there, "he ascended", as here:
he led captivity captive; which is expressive of Christ's conquests and triumph over sin, Satan, the world, death, and the grave; and indeed, every spiritual enemy of his and his people, especially the devil, who leads men captive at his will, and is therefore called captivity, and his principalities and powers, whom Christ has spoiled and triumphed over; the allusion is to the public triumphs of the Romans, in which captives were led in chains, and exposed to open view (s):
and gave gifts unto men; meaning the gifts of the Holy Ghost, and particularly such as qualify men for the work of the ministry; these he received "in man"; in human nature, in that nature in which he ascended to heaven; , "in the man that is known above" (t), as say the Jews; and these he bestows on men, even rebellious ones, that the Lord God might dwell among them, and make them useful to others: wherefore the Jews have no reason to quarrel with the version of the apostle as they do (u); who, instead of "received gifts for" men, renders it, "gave gifts to men"; since the Messiah received in order to give, and gives in consequence of his having received them; and so Jarchi interprets the words, "to give them" to the children of men; and besides, as a learned man has observed (w), one and the same Hebrew word signifies to give and to receive; to which may be added that their own Targum renders it "and hast given gifts to the children of men"; and in like manner the Syriac and Arabic versions of Psalm 68:18 render the words; very likely the apostle might use the Syriac version, which is a very ancient one: it was customary at triumphs to give gifts to the soldiers (x), to which there is an allusion here.
(q) Targum & Jarchi in Psal. lxviii 18. (r) Aben Ezra in loc. (s) Alex. ab Alex. Genial. Dier. l. 6. c. 6. (t) Zohar in Numb. fol. 61. 4. (u) R. Isaac. Chizzuk Emuna, par. 2. c. 91. (w) Pocock. not. Misc. p. 24. (x) Alex. ab. Alex. ib. ut supra. (Genial. Dier. l. 6. c. 6.)
When Jesus died on the cross, He descended to the lower parts of the earth and He opened the gates to heaven, emptying out Paradise and leading the redeemed souls into heaven. Until that happened, ONLY Jesus was able to ascend and descend to/from heaven. Now, though, we who are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ go to be with the Lord in heaven when we die and will receive our glorified bodies when Christ returns at the Rapture (see I Thess. 4).
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