Posted on 11/16/2014 1:42:01 PM PST by NYer
>>They are not in heaven<<
Oh really?
Revelation 8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets. 3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
Revelation 9:13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
I suppose in your world God is not in heaven either? Following that guy who changes scripture is not making you look intelligent.
Nobody is yet “saved” because that salvation lies in the spiritual rebirth Yeshua described to Nicodemus in John Ch 3, which rebirth enables the re-born to travel invisibly through our present dwelling place like the wind, as described clearly in verse 8:
John 3:
[6] That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
[7] Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
[8] The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
1Peter 1:
[9] Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
Hebrews 4:
[1] Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
[2] For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
11] Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
Philippians 2:
[12] Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
We can “know that we will be saved” if we so endure.
To that end, Yeshua writes his commandments “on the fleshly tables of their hearts.”
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Again, you insert your own non-scriptural placement of “under” the altar.
Your interpretation creates a vast number of contradictions in scripture, thus must be discarded as false.
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Revelation 9:13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
>>Your interpretation creates a vast number of contradictions in scripture, thus must be discarded as false.<<
LOL Says the guy who listens to the apostate who changes the Greek word woman to fire to make up a false narrative.
Why don't you go back and re-read my comment? Your answer is there already.
I wasted the time on this video...The guys is extremely short on bible and very long on the human philosophy of Lewis and himself...Matter of fact, this guy never once mentioned a bible verse that I can remember...And that's really easy to understand why...
That is NOT a broad biblical basis for anything...They all say the same thing...Just one repeating the next one...
And they all go back to the same verse to prove something that isn't true...
As is his style, Hahn is his video again perverts the scripture to try to make it prove something it doesn't say...That's called deception...
When he's done messing with it, he's got you Catholics convinced that you are purified by traveling thru some fire in purgatory when the verse says no such thing...
The verse says your works are purified by fire and the fire saves you by burning up any evidence of not so good works...
Pitiful as usual...
But I would suggest to many to read Revelation 2 and 3 very carefully. For God is not talking to the unsaved, he is talking to the ‘saved’ and those who ‘believe’ they are saved. And at each verse he reminds them to repent again AND have ‘good works.’
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
And yet this verse (and many others) not only claims we WILL NOT come into condemnation but we have already passed the finish line...We are there...
So what then??? One group follows the scripture you posted and another follows the one I posted???
Or is my verse a metaphor??? There's only one answer to that...
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
So then where are all those who were let out of Abraham's Bosom???
How did you miss the different parts to the first resurrection???
Another part you missed...Before Jesus 'went up', his body was glorified just as our will be...
1Co_15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co_15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co_15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
While our terrestrial bodies contain the Spirit of God, we're still glued to the earth...When we die, or at the Rapture, our terrestrial bodies will change into celestial bodies as Jesus' body did just before he was risen...
Had Jesus not had his physical body changed, when he went to travel thru that wall, his body would have flattened out against the wall and slid down the wall just as cartoons depict...
>>> “OSAS” is nowhere to be found in scripture.
Neither is the word “Trinity”, but we understand the truth of it.
Actually, there are many truths that are not specifically spelled out for us in easy-to-read one-liners. Some truths are left for us to seek and find in scripture with the council of the Holy Spirit.
I’m having a really hard time with your argument, which is why I took so long to respond...
You say that NOBODY is yet saved, but then claim Jesus was describing how the re-born are enabled to travel invisibly through our PRESENT dwelling place like the wind. This is a self contradicting statement. We become saved during our life on earth, or we do not. If NOBODY is yet saved, then salvation must come after death.
Jesus said in the passage you referenced that we must be born again to be saved. That is what is clear and relevant... so the question becomes “When are we born-again?” When you say that NOBODY is yet saved because salvation lies in spiritual rebirth, I can only surmise that what you are saying is that we are not reborn until after we die, OR that we cannot know that we are saved until after we die.
>>> We must “endure to the end,” as Yeshua plainly stated in Matthew 24, and as repeated by all of the apostles numerous times in the various epistles.
Chuck Missler made the observation that there is more in the bible about end times than any other subject in the bible, including the subject of Jesus’ ministry on earth.
Such is the case with Matthew 24 in which Jesus is responding to a question about the end of days. We are currently living in the age of Grace. While the Holy Spirit resides here on earth, salvation is promised to those who repent and believe in Jesus. Once the Holy Spirit lifts His hand from the earth, the age of grace ends, and what begins is testing and judgment of the nations. Salvation at that point takes on an additional requirement, namely that believers NOT take the mark of the beast. “Enduring to the end” is a tribulation era reference only. By applying this phrase to the church age, you must also define specifically WHAT is to be endured... because Jesus specifically lays out in Matt 24 what is to be endured DURING THE TRIBULATION in order to be saved.
>>> We can “know that we will be saved” if we so endure.
How can one know that they will endure?
Peter did not believe he would deny Christ 3 times, and yet Jesus knew that he would.
It is impossible for anyone to know that they will succeed or fail in anything.
Endurance is a work.
Salvation is by Grace not by works.
The sacrificial blood of Christ cannot be mingled with the filthy rags of man’s works.
Neither do I. Nice synopsis of the Biblical reasons why there will NOT be some place called "Purgatory" or the need to suffer after physical death for "temporal" punishments due our "minor" sins. If the blood of Christ cleanses us from ALL sin - and God clearly says it does - then what possible purpose would there be for such an intermediate place? I don't see that there is one.
What you missed that the necessary change happens specifically at the last trump, and no other time.
If we turn away we lose, for eternity. That is what Hebrews 6 and 10 say in plain words. There is no ace in the hole for salvation, but to endure to the end.
Hebrews 6:The words are there in several epistles, by different authors, and there is no room for OSAS in any of them.
[4] For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[5] And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[6] If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Salvation is at the last trump; that is why Yehova made his most distinctive appointed day, Yom Teruah, to watch for it.
That is why Yeshua said in Revelation 3:
[3] Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
And Paul assured the Thessalonians that Yeshua would not come to them as a thief, because they diligently kept his feasts.
Its all there in the book for those who care enough to want to know. If you prefer to 'know' something that really is not there, you're on your own, for eternity
>> “ If NOBODY is yet saved, then salvation must come after death.” <<
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You’re just figuring that out?
For all but the final generation, that is the undeniable fact that Yeshua and his apostles were trying to get across.
Nobody will experience the stated fact of John 3:8 and continue living in this life. It happens at the last trump, the end of the trib, when Yeshua and his angels appear in the cloud to gather his elect, and all that remain stand watching in dread of what they suddenly realize is to come.
When you yank verses out of their context, all manner of error can slip in. What was John talking about here regarding a "sin unto death"? Here's the passage:
If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that. All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.
We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them. We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one. We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true by being in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life. Dear children, keep yourselves from idols. (I John 5:13-20)
John's talking about praying for someone who is in habitual sin, that they will repent and be freed from that sinful lifestyle. For some Christians, their backsliding might bring God to take them from this life so that they do not cause shame on the name of Christ. The "sin unto death" would be the kind of sin that a person refuses to turn from and our praying for them will not always bring about their reconciliation with God. But, NOWHERE in this passage does the subject of condemnation to HELL come up. Some people read into that passage that a saved person can become unsaved by a sinful act but that isn't what it says. In fact, it says the opposite. God disciplines us as His children and sometimes that discipline might mean He takes us home if we remain in unrepented sin. We don't stop being His children when we have been born again. he doesn't remove the Holy Spirit from those He has sealed until the day of redemption.
We are saved by grace through faith and not by our works. To say someone can LOSE something they didn't do anything to get is negating that it was a gift of grace. God's grace is so infinite and complete that we cannot snatch ourselves out of His hands - NO ONE can.
Let's post the WHOLE thing...
2 Peter 2
1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,[a] putting them in chains of darkness[b] to be held for judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment. 10 This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the flesh[c] and despise authority.
Bold and arrogant, they are not afraid to heap abuse on celestial beings; 11 yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not heap abuse on such beings when bringing judgment on them from[d] the Lord. 12 But these people blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like unreasoning animals, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like animals they too will perish.
13 They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you.[e] 14 With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed—an accursed brood! 15 They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Bezer,[f] who loved the wages of wickedness. 16 But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey—an animal without speech—who spoke with a human voice and restrained the prophet’s madness.
17 These people are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18 For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of the flesh, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for “people are slaves to whatever has mastered them.” 20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,”[g] and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”
It mattereth not who the THEY are, for if THEY (Verse 20)
If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.
Are you trying to make the point that ONLY 'false teachers' will be 'worse off'?
I find that an improper interpretation of the passage.
They're "cherry-picked" and "misunderstood" and "unscriptural" because they go against your OWN cherry-picked, misunderstood and unscriptural verses.
You CAN lose what you DO have!
1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
Take your argument up with JOHN!
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