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Tradition vs Scripture or Sola Scriptura
Blind Eye Jonez | Blind Eye Jonez

Posted on 09/13/2014 11:35:30 AM PDT by Blind Eye Jonez

One of the differences between Christians is that some believe in tradition -- Catholics and Orthodox -- and others -- the Protestants -- do away with tradition and believe in scripture, or Sola Scriptura.

For the Catholics tradition is an important tool for understanding and they point to the fact that both Jesus -- who didn't leave written word -- and Apostles taught by tradition.

So my question is, "Why were the Protestants so keen on removing tradition and relying so heavily on scripture, on Sola Scriptura?" Neither Paul nor Jesus ever said "You will only believe only what is written in the Gospels or my letters." But they did say you will believe in what is transmitted and taught to you.

The Bible seems to contradict the rule it is supposed to represent: it is impossible to represent a scriptural principle that is not seen within the Bible.

Maybe there are some Freeper scholars that can explain this issue. I welcome all input.


TOPICS: Theology
KEYWORDS: herewegoagain
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To: Biggirl

It never stops to amaze me, and at a time when real Christians in the Muslim countries are losing their lives for the Lord, that we still have arguments over scripture and tradition vs. scripture alone.


On another thread I saw a Catholic remark that Protestants are worse than moslems because the moslem will only kill your body while the Protestant will destroy your soul.

So where do you go from there?


81 posted on 09/14/2014 9:55:35 AM PDT by Rides_A_Red_Horse (Why do you need a fire extinguisher when you can call the fire department?)
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To: AEMILIUS PAULUS
So barbecue is okay as long as nobody, in essence, says grace beforehand?
82 posted on 09/14/2014 10:45:36 AM PDT by Wyrd bið ful aræd (Asperges me, Domine, hyssopo et mundabor, Lavabis me, et super nivem dealbabor.)
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To: All

Thank you very much. I will enjoy reading these posts.


83 posted on 09/14/2014 12:56:13 PM PDT by Blind Eye Jonez
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To: taxcontrol
" Catechism 971 - "All generations will call me blessed": "The Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship." The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of 'Mother of God,' to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs ....

Note the word "honors" and "honored".....NOT worshipped. That is what "veneration" means. Catholic doctrine is VERY explicit on the subject....."worhsip" (latria) is given only the God...."veneration/honor" (dulia) is given to any worthy individual.

""Hail Mary ...". Mary was a human, is now dead. Same with the Apostles. They are dead, praying to them is praying to the dead."

But they are not dead.....they are living in Heaven, and thus more "alive" than they ever were here on earth. As are the Saints, and anyone else who didn't need a "rest stop" in Purgatory.

"Exclusion of the Apocrypha works was long before Luther and includes St Jerome and Bishop Athanasius of Alexandria. Even Jewish historian Josephus excluded Macabees from the Hebrew Cannon."

Yes, indeed. And mistakenly so. Such exclusion is based on the Hebrews re-defining what constituted the Old Testament...an action taken about one hundred years AFTER Jesus' life, death, and resurrection. Unsurprisingly, a big part of that re-definition was to eliminate any texts that might refer to either Jesus or the topic of resurrection. They accomplished this by dropping any books whose original language was Greek rather than Hebrew.

"Matthew 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking."

I repeat.....what exactly is "vain repetition"??? Of course ANY heathen prayer is "in vain". But I fail to see how any CHRISTIAN prayer can be "vain". Even protestants repeat the "Lord's Prayer".

84 posted on 09/14/2014 7:01:32 PM PDT by Wonder Warthog (Newly fledged NRA Life Member (after many years as an "annual renewal" sort))
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To: OneWingedShark
"I don't think anyone is saying that there are no traditions; but the sola scriptura proponents [of which I am a member] claim that all that is essential is already covered in the scripture — moreover, the role of the Holy Spirit (his work and purpose) fits nicely with this idea... for our God is not dead, but lives and works in the world even now.

Since Jesus himself taught from Hebrew tradition as well as Old Testament scripture, Jesus by his own actions demonstrated that "sola scriptura" was wrong. If "all that was essential" was in scripture, then he wouldn't have used Hebrew tradition, now would he.

"I disagree; as someone upthread mentioned: Jesus used scripture as his reply to Satan. He would certainly be in the right to reply on his own authority [being the Creator] but he did not — instead he quoted/cited scripture. Does this not imply we ought to have greatest respect for the scripture?

See above point.....Jesus himself taught both from Scripture AND Tradition. The fact that he quoted Scripture to Satan doesn't prove (or even address) the point.

"His own language? I don't believe that for a second: from nearly the beginning of its inception the New Testament was translated into other languages, and on Pentecost men heard "in their own language" not were suddenly able to understand Hebrew. (And prior to this the Old Testament had been translated into at least Greek.)

You miss the point. Your comments relate to HUMAN languages. God speaks physics (or perhaps mathematics), and his WORD became the universe within which we live. Thus, we have TWO sources of "God's Word" at a minimum.....the Bible and the Universe. Hence "sola scriptura" is ridiculous on its face.

85 posted on 09/14/2014 7:10:47 PM PDT by Wonder Warthog (Newly fledged NRA Life Member (after many years as an "annual renewal" sort))
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To: Wonder Warthog
Thus, we have TWO sources of "God's Word" at a minimum.....the Bible and the Universe.

That was a medieval maxim: God wrote two books, the Bible and Creation.

86 posted on 09/14/2014 7:21:38 PM PDT by St_Thomas_Aquinas ( Isaiah 22:22, Matthew 16:19, Revelation 3:7)
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To: Wonder Warthog
"I don't think anyone is saying that there are no traditions; but the sola scriptura proponents [of which I am a member] claim that all that is essential is already covered in the scripture — moreover, the role of the Holy Spirit (his work and purpose) fits nicely with this idea... for our God is not dead, but lives and works in the world even now.
Since Jesus himself taught from Hebrew tradition as well as Old Testament scripture, Jesus by his own actions demonstrated that "sola scriptura" was wrong. If "all that was essential" was in scripture, then he wouldn't have used Hebrew tradition, now would he.

Being a part of a culture, you would naturally use cultural references — that Jesus did this with Hebrew culture does not mean that Hebrew culture is superior. (Indeed, he acted in severely and distinctly counter-cultural manners as well: talking with a Samaritan woman, not stoning an [accused] adulteress, hanging out with sinners and tax-collectors [i.e. the scum of the earth].)

"I disagree; as someone upthread mentioned: Jesus used scripture as his reply to Satan. He would certainly be in the right to reply on his own authority [being the Creator] but he did not — instead he quoted/cited scripture. Does this not imply we ought to have greatest respect for the scripture?
See above point.....Jesus himself taught both from Scripture AND Tradition. The fact that he quoted Scripture to Satan doesn't prove (or even address) the point.

I'm sorry; but nowhere do I see that tradition should be set on equal footing with scripture; nowhere does the Bible say that tradition can save, yet we are told to receive with meekness the implanted word that has the power to save your souls (James 1:21) — John does not say in the beginning was the tradition, and the tradition was with God, and the tradition was God […] and the tradition became flesh and lived among us; no, John says that of the word — that is why Jesus fulfills the Law, the Prophets, and the Scripture: He is the Word.

"His own language? I don't believe that for a second: from nearly the beginning of its inception the New Testament was translated into other languages, and on Pentecost men heard "in their own language" not were suddenly able to understand Hebrew. (And prior to this the Old Testament had been translated into at least Greek.)
You miss the point. Your comments relate to HUMAN languages. God speaks physics (or perhaps mathematics), and his WORD became the universe within which we live. Thus, we have TWO sources of "God's Word" at a minimum.....the Bible and the Universe. Hence "sola scriptura" is ridiculous on its face.

And see the above: the very fact that the word creates he universe undermines the assertion you make that tradition is on equal footing.

87 posted on 09/14/2014 7:28:51 PM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: Wonder Warthog
I repeat.....what exactly is "vain repetition"?

Exactly.

88 posted on 09/14/2014 7:29:25 PM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: Wonder Warthog
...Blesed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship." Note the use of the word worship.

But they are dead and remain so till the Resurrection.

1 Cor 15:51-52
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Well that certainly is the Catholic church's view isn't it.

How may "Hail Marys" have been required after the end of a confession? These are certainly vain repetitions.

89 posted on 09/15/2014 5:25:25 AM PDT by taxcontrol
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To: Wyrd bið ful aræd
So the gospels, written AFTER the crucifixion, came too late to the party and should be ignored...?

You're forgetting that God's revelation of His Will/Covenants/Testament was chronologically progressive in nature,finally completed by the unveiling of the Apocalyptic prophecy shown by God to Christ and written down by John. There has been no further words from Jehovah since. Scripture is, by definition, graven.

90 posted on 09/15/2014 8:35:25 AM PDT by imardmd1 (Fiat Lux)
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To: al_c

Thank you, I may. And I am sorry for my (negative) attitude, sometimes God uses the littlest things to humble us, and I appreciate your Christian brotherhood.

I am just a humble sinner as you are, and whatever brings us closer to Christ is good and worthy.

-JS


91 posted on 09/15/2014 11:42:55 AM PDT by JSDude1
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To: JSDude1

No worries, FRiend.


92 posted on 09/15/2014 12:32:54 PM PDT by al_c (Obama's standing in the world has fallen so much that Kenya now claims he was born in America.)
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To: OneWingedShark
"Being a part of a culture, you would naturally use cultural references — that Jesus did this with Hebrew culture does not mean that Hebrew culture is superior.

Uh, I never said Hebrew culture was superior....just that Jesus taught from both the Hebrew written scripture AND the spoken Hebrew religious tradition. Note that that does not imply that Hebrew written scripture and Hebrew spoken tradition are "on an equal footing".

"I'm sorry; but nowhere do I see that tradition should be set on equal footing with scripture

Of course you can't see it. You're a Protestant, and have been taught from your childhood that "only the Bible" is valid. But the simple fact is that I have claimed no such thing.

"nowhere does the Bible say that tradition can save, yet we are told to "receive with meekness the implanted word that has the power to save your souls" (James 1:21)

Uh, "implanted word" could refer to either written OR spoken word.

"John does not say "in the beginning was the tradition, and the tradition was with God, and the tradition was God […] and the tradition became flesh and lived among us"; no, John says that of the word — that is why Jesus fulfills the Law, the Prophets, and the Scripture: He is the Word."

And God SAID, let there be light...... Note...NOT "..and God WROTE". God SPOKE, THEN he "wrote" the universe. Note that the spoken word came first.

"And see the above: the very fact that the word creates he universe undermines the assertion you make that tradition is on equal footing.

Again...."God SAID"....not "God WROTE". If anything, the ordering implies that tradition (spoken word) is superior to scripture (written word). Not that I am by any means claiming that.

But I think that since Jesus himself used both written AND spoken Hebrew concepts says AT MINIMUM that the New Testament writings and Christian tradition are both valid sources of knowledge and understanding about Jesus and salvation......NOT "sola scriptura".

93 posted on 09/15/2014 4:38:36 PM PDT by Wonder Warthog (Newly fledged NRA Life Member (after many years as an "annual renewal" sort))
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To: taxcontrol
"But they are dead and remain so till the Resurrection."

Nope....your own quote immediately below disproves that.

"1 Cor 15:51-52 51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed

Uh, "We shall not all sleep...." If they're not all sleeping, then "some" of them must be awake. Which is precisely the Catholic church's position...."some" of the righteous (Mary, the Apostles, and "the saints" (some of whom are known, but most of whom are not)) are awake.

"How may "Hail Marys" have been required after the end of a confession? These are certainly vain repetitions."

LOL. I have NEVER said a "Hail Mary" after confession, much less repeated it.

94 posted on 09/15/2014 4:40:02 PM PDT by Wonder Warthog (Newly fledged NRA Life Member (after many years as an "annual renewal" sort))
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To: Wonder Warthog
You are wrong; verbal communication is not tradition.
That there is spoken word does not make something tradition.

tradition
  1. the handing down of statements, beliefs, legends, customs, information, etc., from generation to generation, especially by word of mouth or by practice: a story that has come down to us by popular tradition.
  2. something that is handed down: the traditions of the Eskimos.
  3. a long-established or inherited way of thinking or acting: The rebellious students wanted to break with tradition.
  4. a continuing pattern of culture beliefs or practices.
  5. a customary or characteristic method or manner: The winner took a victory lap in the usual track tradition.
  6. Theology.
    1. (among Jews) body of laws and doctrines, or any one of them, held to have been received from Moses and originally handed down orally from generation to generation.
    2. (among Christians) a body of teachings, or any one of them, held to have been delivered by Christ and His apostles but not originally committed to writing.
    3. (among Muslims) a hadith.
  7. Law. an act of handing over something to another, especially in a formal legal manner; delivery; transfer.
Note that the theology/Jews definition is... misleading; otherwise Jesus would not have been able to say by your tradition you make the law of God of no effect.
95 posted on 09/15/2014 4:59:27 PM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: Wonder Warthog
Uh, "We shall not all sleep...." If they're not all sleeping, then "some" of them must be awake. Which is precisely the Catholic church's position...."some" of the righteous (Mary, the Apostles, and "the saints" (some of whom are known, but most of whom are not)) are awake.

Seems like a big stretch to me; far more likely is the interpretation that those that are awake are those believers that are [at that moment] alive on Earth. (Notice, in particular, the 'we' in this letter to the church that is being addressed.)

96 posted on 09/15/2014 5:04:37 PM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: Rides_A_Red_Horse

Quote- So where do you go from there?

‘Come out of her, my people’ is where you go from there...

The farther, the better...


97 posted on 09/16/2014 2:10:15 PM PDT by delchiante
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To: Terabitten
My personal favorite proof of Sola Scriptura is the temptation of Christ. There could be no higher stakes. Jesus could have answered Satan in His own authority, and been completely justified in doing so. Instead, He answered Satan with Scripture. That speaks volumes about the authority of Scripture.

I don't see that as a proof text for Sola Scriptura. Any word that Jesus spoke to the adversary would be Scripture if it were recorded. He spoke many words that were not recorded. He is the very Word of God. I think something else was going on in that event, ie., the temptation. These are the texts that I recall involve a direct conversation between the LORD and the adversary. Consider the temptation dialogue. The adversary tried to tempt Jesus by either alluding to Scripture (Deut 8:3 for first and various messianic scriptures for the third) or referring to it directly (Psalm 91:11-12). Jesus responded to the adversary's scriptural references with scriptural correction. If you stretch the point to bring in all the other times he used scripture I point out again that everything he said that was recorded was scripture and everything he said that was not recorded is still the Word of God. And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

  1. And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
  2. And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought? Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land. But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord.
  3. Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred. And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.
  4. But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

98 posted on 09/16/2014 8:07:29 PM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began)
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To: OneWingedShark
"You are wrong; verbal communication is not tradition. That there is spoken word does not make something tradition."

No, you're just not thinking far enough. The usual sequence is "spoken word"-->tradition (via. use over a long period of time)-->written. And in fact, that is precisely the sequence by with the New Testament scriptures were arrived at. For some variablly recognized period of time, Christians had ONLY tradition and the Old Testament scripture....the New Testament did not exist.

"Note that the theology/Jews definition is... misleading; otherwise Jesus would not have been able to say "by your tradition you make the law of God of no effect"."

Not misleading at all. Jesus's overall point was that SOME traditions are valid (those from which he taught) and some were not (those of the Pharisee/scribes). Thus, both those valid concepts which were eventually written, and those valid concepts that remained spoken ALSO remained valid teachings. There is no basis AT ALL for "sola scriptura" other than Luther's fiat...."because I will have it so".

"(RE...all sleep).

"Seems like a big stretch to me; far more likely is the interpretation that those that are "awake" are those believers that are [at that moment] alive on Earth. (Notice, in particular, the 'we' in this letter to the church that is being addressed.)"

Except that the historical fact is that the Church that existed since Pentecost taught precisely that the Saints and others were awake and alive up until Luther. That Protestants choose to ignore all that history certainly doesn't validate Luther's position.

99 posted on 09/17/2014 7:45:12 AM PDT by Wonder Warthog (Newly fledged NRA Life Member (after many years as an "annual renewal" sort))
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To: Blind Eye Jonez

What is sad to see is the no one has attempted to define WHAT sola scriptoria is...all you are doing is talking past one another..

The sola scriptoria as seen in the article of the OP is NOT what sola scriptoria is nor what the reformers meant. The reformers did NOT throw away tradition, they did NOT throw away the writings of the early church fathers, they did NOT throw away creeds and early church councilor decisions such as Nicaea, Chalcedon etc....

In the early church basically scriptureis the same as the apostolic tradition and apostolic tradition is the same as scripture. In essence scripture is the apostolic teaching WRITTEN DOWN. It was the Regula Fide of the church. It is the faith/doctrines that the church has always believed.

Where Protestants and Roman Catholics (RCC) disagree id when the RCC says that there are unwritten traditions. That is where the disagreement lies. The RCC wants to hold the Christian conscience captive to what is unwriitten, what they say is tradition. Unfortunately for them there are many doctrines/dogmas that they hold to that we’re never propagated by the scriptures NOR the apostolic/early church fathers such as the Marian dogmas, papal primacy etc...

An again I challenge the Roman Catholics here to show me ONE doctrine that is necessary for salvation that is NOT found in scripture but comes to us from tradition alone!! And again I say if there is none then YOUR position is moot and sola scriptoria stands as a correct principle of the reformation.


100 posted on 09/17/2014 8:08:52 AM PDT by polishprince
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