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To: OneWingedShark
"You are wrong; verbal communication is not tradition. That there is spoken word does not make something tradition."

No, you're just not thinking far enough. The usual sequence is "spoken word"-->tradition (via. use over a long period of time)-->written. And in fact, that is precisely the sequence by with the New Testament scriptures were arrived at. For some variablly recognized period of time, Christians had ONLY tradition and the Old Testament scripture....the New Testament did not exist.

"Note that the theology/Jews definition is... misleading; otherwise Jesus would not have been able to say "by your tradition you make the law of God of no effect"."

Not misleading at all. Jesus's overall point was that SOME traditions are valid (those from which he taught) and some were not (those of the Pharisee/scribes). Thus, both those valid concepts which were eventually written, and those valid concepts that remained spoken ALSO remained valid teachings. There is no basis AT ALL for "sola scriptura" other than Luther's fiat...."because I will have it so".

"(RE...all sleep).

"Seems like a big stretch to me; far more likely is the interpretation that those that are "awake" are those believers that are [at that moment] alive on Earth. (Notice, in particular, the 'we' in this letter to the church that is being addressed.)"

Except that the historical fact is that the Church that existed since Pentecost taught precisely that the Saints and others were awake and alive up until Luther. That Protestants choose to ignore all that history certainly doesn't validate Luther's position.

99 posted on 09/17/2014 7:45:12 AM PDT by Wonder Warthog (Newly fledged NRA Life Member (after many years as an "annual renewal" sort))
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To: Wonder Warthog
No, you're just not thinking far enough. The usual sequence is "spoken word"-->tradition (via. use over a long period of time)-->written. And in fact, that is precisely the sequence by with the New Testament scriptures were arrived at. For some variablly recognized period of time, Christians had ONLY tradition and the Old Testament scripture....the New Testament did not exist.

No, it's really not.
The Epistles (Paul's letters, John's letters, Peter's letters, James) which comprise most of the New Testament were written, and distributed, among the early churches -- there wasn't any need for an oral tradition there. The Gospel of John and Revelation were also written by that disciple.

Not misleading at all. Jesus's overall point was that SOME traditions are valid (those from which he taught) and some were not (those of the Pharisee/scribes).

So then, let me ask this: is any tradition which makes the law of God to no effect a valid tradition?
Is it possible, in any way, that in the totality of the Catholic Church's traditions there is one which likewise runs counter to the scripture?

102 posted on 09/17/2014 3:09:33 PM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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