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Skip to comments.Can John MacArthur - Calvinist - differentiate b/w the never saved & the out of fellowship w/Christ?
Posted on 11/04/2013 3:12:35 PM PST by Laissez-faire capitalist
Can John F. MacArthur - or any other Calvinist - please differentiate between (or what constitutes the difference between) those who were truly never saved, and those who are saved, but are now living "out of fellowship" with Christ?
I have read in the MacArthur Bible where he seems to boil it down to... by their fruits shall ye know them.
But how much bad fruit or lack of good fruit does one have to show to give evidence that they were never saved, or that they are still saved, but have merely fallen out of fellowship with Christ?
Example: A young man goes down to the altar, several hear him accept Christ into his life. A few years later he goes off to Bible college and graduates, accepts a youth pastor position, and then a few years later falls into sin, deep sin, whatever.
Half the church where he was the youth pastor says that he was never saved to begin with, and that he somehow duped them. The other half says that he is still saved, but has fallen into - yes - deep sin, but nonetheless is just "fallen out of fellowship" with Christ.
Which half of the church can prove with absolute accuracy that they are the half that is correct?
are there some cases where Jesus said "let them [the tares and the wheat" grow up together and at ther end of the age the Lord will reveal who was and wasn't saved.
Problem is, could this all apply to your/any pastor - even to John F. MacArthur himself?
Only the absolute [God Almighty] can know with absolute certainty.
“How many backsliders can dance on the head of a pin?”
If you persevere to the end, then you were saved.
One has relevance (this thread), the other - “angels dancing on the head of a pin” - really doesn't in the long run.
Who is saved? How about your pastor? Is he duping you? Is the person sitting next to you in the pew truly saved?
Are you saved? Or is your heart deceiving you?
The Bible says that the heart is “deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, who can know it?”
That is then - future - but what about now?
No one knows for sure on the eternal fate of his neighbor. As far as the example above the so called ‘sinful’ person could have done many good works before passing...if you believe that good works alone will deliver you.
We know the best good works are those low profile acts known only to God.
I’m interested to hear what JM has to say about this too. btw his last few shows that politely dismantled the charismatics were a good listen.
I certainly appreciate John MacArthur and enjoy listening to him almost nightly but what "deep sin" did he commit?
I once has a Calvinist as a teacher who insisted that once you’re saved you’re always saved. A student asked him “well, what about those that were Christians, and then turned against their faith?”
“Well, they were never saved in the first place”
“But they believed they were, while they weren’t. How can we know that we are truly saved then?
“We can’t. We won’t know for sure until we’re in heaven.”
So basically, there is security in your faith as a Calvinist. One of the many reasons I reject Calvinism.
I never said that MacArthur committed any “deep sin.”
I never said that MacArthur was the example of the young man who goes off to Bible college, graduates, accepts a youth pastor position falls into deep sin, whataver. He isn’t.
That was just an example to spur inquiry.
Thus, I used: “Example...”
Sorry if you accidentally conflated things.
Would that teacher, in your opinion, say that what he said could be applied to any pastor/preacher, even himself - even MacArthur?
>> One has relevance (this thread)
It does? Really?
Please explain answering this question, which I *can’t possibly* answer (and neither can *you*, it’s above our pay grade) change in the tiniest way how I must live as a Christian?
I’m not saying it’s not an interesting theological question, and I’m not saying it’s out of line to ask it.
But yes, I *am* saying it’s as irrelevant to my spiritual behavior and outcome as the angels/pinhead question.
8...Or 6 fat ones...
IMHO, he actually torpedoed the Word of Faith crowd more than anyone else.
Then again, this thread torpedoes a major Calvinistic belief. There is no way that they can truly differentiate b/w the never saved and those who are still saved, just “merely out of fellowship.”
Thus the unknowability of which Calvinist preacher/teacher/lay person is or isn’t saved.
It could very well be that in some cases enough time just hasn’t passed to unmask them.
A true statement. God does give us His Word as an assurance of salvation.
I am curious at a blog post that discusses such a serious matter but does not present scriptures.
Your friend’s response saddens me. Don’t judge Calvinism based on his half-baked answer. I wish I had time to get into this discussion now, but all I have time to say is that I lacked real assurance until I understood and accepted the Doctrines of Grace. Next to being saved, that understanding was the best thing that ever happened to me.
If you are saved, then it was by grace before the foundation of the earth. And if you are saved now, then you will persevere to the end. If you fall away, then you were never really saved.
So although from a temporal standpoint, your salvation is secured on earth by grace through faith, from God’s viewpoint you were saved from the foundation of the earth.
Are you concerned for your own salvation, or are you speculating as to the salvation of others?
By whose power have you been saved? Is it by the power of your own temporal decision or actions or works, or by the power and grace of God alone?
All I asked is that how can you, me, MacArthur, anyone, prove who was never saved in the first place and who are still saved, but just merely fallen out of fellowship with Christ?
And you avoided it with an apples to oranges argument -— which was the using of a red herring on your part, too, btw.
Calvinistic and Armenian doctrines are very important to study and inquire into - as to which can be proven with absolute certainty.
>> The Bible says that the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, who can know it?
The Bible *also* includes three epistles of John, the first of which lays out a lot of good background information about your question, if not a black-and-white answer to it.
Read it all, but for the sake of a pithy quotable verse: :-)
“I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.” (5:13)
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