Posted on 05/25/2013 5:10:23 PM PDT by pastorbillrandles
I like how Genesis also notes that He made the stars also....it was almost as an afterthought the author included this fact of creation.
I teach a class on Sunday mornings and it really amazes me the influence of culture on the creation account. Many folks just can’t see to come to grips that God is capable of creating the entire universe in just a few spoken words.
I ask them if He can’t do creation in six days, or six minutes or whatever measure of time you want, then how can He raise someone from the dead?
Why is the creation account so hard to believe for many Christians?
Depends on the interpetation ~ God can do anything. Most hard-core interpretations of Genesis ask us to LIMIT GOD.
Because faith cometh by hearing.
Actually, that is not true. Not true, that is, in the sequence of events of Creation, nor the implication of the stars being an “afterthought.” The true story of the stars is actually much more elegant, much more faith-inspiring. But only if you understand the physics and biology required.
The miracle of Creation (as described in Genesis) is not so much that it is accurate with respect to the nuclear physics of the Big Bang, stellar evolution, planetary formation and continental drift/plate tectonics, but that every step of every “scientific theory” that we now know IS exactly described already in Genesis. Before writing, before anything resembling arithmetic (much less computers, mathematics, powers-of-ten, logarithms or even the number zero) were invented.
When you state “made the stars” you're actually describing how the stars (and moon) were “set in the heavens” to “rule the sky”. These had already been created “in the beginning” but were revealed (to someone on earth) only AFTER the plants grew enough to produce enough oxygen to clear the skies and allow them to be seen. Before that period, before the atmosphere changed, the stars and moon were hidden: just like Venus and Saturn's atmospheres are opaque.
Re-read Genesis: Notice now that the "waters below" were gathered into "one ocean"? (A true scientifically accurate statement in Genesis, since there was only one continent before they broke up as plate tectonics moved them around)? However, when Genesis was finally written down from its oral tradition, did not the writers KNOW absolutely that there were many seas and many lands? Would that conflict not prevent a "faith" in the accuracy of the Story from ever being accepted in the first place?
Plants - as we now know - were created first, then life in the sea, then "birds" (dinosaurs - as we just now figured out these past 20 years!), and only afterwards were land animals formed, with domesticated mammals last. Again, as we just now know.
Snakes, as you may not know, were a very, very recent development, not being formed (evolved as some call it) until after the continents and islands broke up less than 30 million years ago.
If you wish, we can also go into the nuclear physics Genesis describes just as accurately.
Without light, there is no E = MC squared. Think about it.
Stick to your day job.
I noticed you breezily dismiss “the gap theory” with “The text did not say,” then almost immediately cite Morris for alternative translation.
Missing such a contradiction could be simple over site; defending it would be intellectual dishonesty.
I was not implying that God made the stars as an afterthought as in “oh, there's some leftover stuff, so I'll throw the stars in also. Rather I think it speaks of the majesty of God's creation.
I use the NASB translation which records Gen 1:4 as follows:
God made the two great lights, the greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night; [He made] the stars also.
The majority of the translations record this verse this way. Now, what's interesting is that “He made” is not found in the original Hebrew in this statement. I think our translators have presumed to include this statement “He made” and were probably right in doing so. The Hebrew simply has this as “the stars.”
So if we read this with the He made it goes something like this
God made the two great lights, the greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night; the stars.
Notice the semi-colon. If this is being used to join two independent clauses then your point of the stars serving as light sources fits perfectly here as the stars do aid for light at night.
The word “also” is interesting. It is not included in the Hebrew either.
Maybe I was more appropriately viewing this with an eye towards the majesty of God. I guess when I say afterthought that may be a poor choice of words.
I find it very humbling to consider that in addition to creating the sun and moon, God made the stars also. Implication: He made the universe as well. All of the billions and billions of stars we see at night and God made them. We're talking the universe here and God made it. Wow, what a concept that is. How it speaks to the awesomeness of God.
These are the very stars Abraham was called to look upon when God established His covenant with him later in Genesis 12. These are the very stars we can see at night as well. The universe is a very humbling place.
I think this also reflects the amount of light pollution we have in our cities. I live close to a metro area so my star field is somewhat limited. My memory of the brightness of the stars from my younger days in a rural area has been dimmed somewhat. You are right in the light given off by the stars. Under the right circumstances the light they give off is amazing.
Good discussion! We do serve an awesome God.
What contradiction? I didn’t “beezily dismiss the gap” I simply cited one of the reasons why I don’t accept it/ Furthermore I cited Morris , not for an alternative translation but because his discussion of the Spirit moving was interesting to me, and to other readers I am sure.
Reminds me of an argument I had with a dear friend; despite his command of the trivial math needed, he refused to accept “without mass, there is no time” until I cited an encyclopedia source.
People are funny....
Distinction without difference.
paper, I honestly don’t understand what you are trying to say. I didn’t look for any alternate translation, I am not trying to hone a particular axe-
You talk about alternative translations just before the segue into Morris' quote that "vibrated" would probably be the most appropriate translation, but presumably dismiss the gap theory on the basis of the English "text" as the original language does allow for it.
Looks like unvarnished "special pleading" to me.....
Not a good way to demonstrate 1Thess 5:21 if you ask me.
This Is From The Companion Bible.
That created = the Creator of. Note how these expressions are heaped together to impress us with the fact that the One Who created all ought to be able to tell us, better than ignorant man, how He created it. We are not told how, when, or why, or how long it lasted. When geologists have settled how many years they require, they may place them between verses 1 and 2 of Genesis 1. In Genesis 1:2-2:4, we have "the heavens and the earth which are now" of 2Peter 3:7. Both are set in contrast with the "new heavens and the new earth" of 2Peter 3:13. 1The Lord = Hebrew; Yehovah
This Is From The Companion Bible.
1. "THE WORLD THAT THEN WAS" (2Peter 3:5,6). See Structure, page 1. Creation in eternity past, to which all Fossils and "Remains" belongs. God. Hebrew Elohim, plural. First occurence connects it with creation, and denotes, by usage, the Creator in relation to His creatures. See Appendix 4. The Hebrew accent Athnach places the emphasis, and gives pause, on "God" as being Himself the great worker, separating the Worker from His work. created (sing.). Occurs 6 times in this Introduction. Other acts 46 times. See Appendix 5. Perfection implied. Deuteronomy 32:4. 2Samuel 22:31. Job 38:7. Pslams 111; 147:3-5. Proverbs 3:19. Ecclesiastes 3:11-14. [Even the Greek Cosmos = ornament. Exodus 33:4-6. Isaiah 49:18. Jeremiah 4:30. Ezekiel 7:20. 1Peter 3:3] the heaven and the earth. With Hebrew Particle 'eth before each, emphasising the Article "the", and thus distinguishing both from 2:1. "Heavens" in Hebrew always in plural. See note on Deuteronomy 4:26.
2. And. Note the Figure of Speech Polysyndeton (See appendix 6), by which, in the 34 verses of this Introduction, each one of 102 separate acts are emphasised; and the important word "God" in verse 1 is carried like a lamp through the whole of this Introduction (1:1 - 2:3). the earth. Figure of Speech Anadiplosis. See appendix 6. was = become. See Genesis 2:7; 4:3; 9:15; 19:26. Exodus 32:1. Deuteronomy 27:9. 2Samuel 7:24, etc. Also rendered came to pass, Genesis 4:14; 22:1; 23:1; 27:1. Joshua 4:1; 5:1. 1Kings 13:32. Isaiah 14:24 etc. Also rendered be (in the sense of become), verse 3 etc., and where the verb "to be" is not in italic type. Hence, Exodus 3:1, kept=became keeper, quit = become men, etc. See Appendix 7. without form = waste. Hebrew tohu va bohu. Figure of Speech Paronomasia See appendix 6. Not created tohu (Isaiah 45:18 See Above), but became tohu (Genesis 1:2. 2Peter 3:5,6). "An enemy hath done this" (Matthew 13:25,28,39. compare 1Corithians 14:33). See Appendix 8. was. This is the italic type, because no verb "to be" in Hebrew (see Appendix 7). In like manner man became a ruin (Genesis 3. Psalms 14:1-3; 51:5; 53:1-3. Ecclesiastes 7:20. Romans 7:18). face. Figure of Speech Pleonasm. See appendix 6. the Spirit of God moved (see Appendix 9) = The beginning of "the heavens and the earth which are now" (2Peter 3:7). It is even so in the New Creation. The Spirit moves (John 3:3-8. Romans 8:5,9,14. Galatians 4:29. 2Corinthians 5:17,18).
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There are reasons why I dimiss the gap theory, but I didn’t write this as a polemic against it. Morrises quote about the movement of the Spirit across the waters, possibly meaning “Vibrating” doesn’t seem to do any damage to the text seeing that the same word is rendered shaKe and flutter.
Curious isn't it there was a ‘flood’ before this earth was cleaned up, described right there in Genesis 1:2?
Then you would probably be best served by not mentioning it.
If you're going to use a particular wrench to remove one spark plug, mentioning you won't use it on another plug without an adequate "why" ALWAYS makes a critical thinker suspicious.
I enjoyed the journey, though.
I had given up on 'religion' and decided too many fingers had their way with the WORD down through all these years for it to still be in tact as was given from the Heavenly Father. The crazy conflict with young earth and old earth surely had to have a Godly answer... and it does.
You found the way around it, I'm happy for you.
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