Posted on 04/06/2013 10:46:39 AM PDT by ReformationFan
....suicide is one taking his own life for personal reasons...to stop the life given Him.....
I think I made that clear....Christ’s death was a sacrifice...not suicide...and He didn’t kill himself...others crucified Him.
Maybe you need to look up sacrifice....and murder.
Personal reasons? Like pleasing one's father (or failing to)?
I think I made that clear....Christ’s death was a sacrifice...not suicide...and He didn’t kill himself...others crucified Him.
No, in John 10:18 said: "No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father." -- Therefore you are either mistaken, or calling Him a liar. (Suicide and sacrifice are not mutually exclusive given the dictionary-definition; you have not defined it yet.)
Maybe you need to look up sacrifice....and murder.
Why? I'm not convinced your definition is a good one; even if it is that verse in John makes it look like Jesus's death is still a suicide.
The Lake of Fire is a terrible place where man’s freedom to choose to be separate from God drifts away in the justice of its consequences......again...there are three parts of humanity...Body, soul AND Spirit....Three 'distinct' parts of ourselves.
The Bible never addresses 'extinction' of humankind.....'ALL' are destined for eternity....’where’ and how they will spend that ( consiously) is fully centered on their response to Jesus Christ. .......whether they choose to believe that or not does not change the truth of that reality.
I don't know why.
That subject seems to come up everytime, as if it was a big question for christians to answer and not for those who are unsaved.
I have an answer; but a lot of people might call it a cop-out: here.
There will be questions that will never have a good answer to until Christ comes back the 2nd time, so why even bother to seek a answer to them.
This is true.
‘Suicide’ is ‘self’ ‘inflicted’...the individual does the deed to himself and for himself...and in doing so hurts many....furthermore generally to "relieve themselves" of whatever it is that's troubling them personally, which they cannot find relief from or answers to.
‘Sacrifice’ is an act of ‘offering’... giving for someone or something else.......”Jesus was offered once for all to bear the sin of many.”...He did not ‘take’ His live, as in suicide, He ‘gave’ His life so that others might live.
David was in Sheol or Hades in the Greek, the grave in it’s broadest sense not a specific grave or tomb.
Both of these words are often translated as hell as at Acts 2 and Ps 16:10.
Let's analyze this perspective for a moment.
Heb 10:26-27 (26) For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, (27) But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
We observe there is a different perspective of God when we are not in fellowship with Him, compared to when we are in fellowship with Him.
When out of fellowship, when we have sin which has not yet been forgiven, we recognize that even angels who disobeyed Him are condemned to the Lake of Fire and see no reason why we shouldn't also be so judged. We look to God appealing for grace.
When we are in fellowship, we aren't anticipating He will punish us, but that He loves us and has forgiven us.
In God's brilliant Plan, unlike the angels, we have been condemned prior to having eternal life. The payment for sin has been performed once and forever covers us. This is why in a moment's notice, we can receive salvation instantly. It happens at forgiveness of our sins, which happens when we face Him, looking at our sins and accepting the Perfect Sacrifice made by Christ to cover those sins, placing them in His hands.
Sin was dealt with in God's Plan at the Cross. It has been covered eternally. This is not the situation with good and evil.
The consequences of evil must be dealt with in time, not instantly, at this stage in His Plan.
God ad in His Plan, doesn't have to face evil in His presence for all eternity, nor does He have to submit us to its presence after the Great White Throne Judgment.
It has been said that the age of humanity is the appeals trial for the Adversary and the fallen angels. The very reason why some think eternal damnation might be too severe a judgment, have also been provided this record of human history to show the Creation that His Judgment is perfect and righteous and just. It also likely will show all through faith in Him, that the natural consequence of rebellion from Him leads to consequences so vile, that there is no other viable alternative than eternal damnation in the Lake of Fire. This includes those who choose to believe independently from God.
It isn't so much a prompting by extortion for us to believe in Christ, as that might be the perspective of somebody not thinking through faith in Christ. Rather, accepting what He provides, it manifests His love for ALL mankind, such that nobody has an excuse for not accepting what He provides.
“Why did there have to be any description of hell in the bible? It seems that it’s primary purpose would be to frighten people into accepting Jesus, which wouldn’t seem to be a legitimate reason to accept Christ. So why not just leave hell out of the bible rather than seemingly use it as a sort of emotional blackmail to accept Christ.”
Well, it is first necessary to know how it is that God saves His elect before you talk about “emotional blackmail.”
Salvation is the work of God, from beginning, middle and end:
Joh_15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
It is God who “chooses” who will be drawn, and who will not be drawn.
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
It is the work of God, who before the foundation of the world elected us to salvation according to His own good purpose:
Rom 8:29-30 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (30) Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
A person does not save himself, or come to a saving belief in God by his own good judgment. He whom God predestinates is called, and whom God calls He justifies and glorifies. It is never “he called, man answered, and therefore he is predestinated.” Instead, they believe BECAUSE they are ordained, and not the other way around:
Act_13:48 ... and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
And why is that? Because man, of himself, is utterly depraved and incapable of seeking God.
Rom 3:9-19 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; (10) As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: (11) There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. (12) They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. (13) Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: (14) Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: (15) Their feet are swift to shed blood: (16) Destruction and misery are in their ways: (17) And the way of peace have they not known: (18) There is no fear of God before their eyes. (19) Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Even our highest ideals of goodness and righteousness is, in the sight of God, filthy rags:
Isa_64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
Until you understand your own depravity, you will never understand the existence of hell. It is not “emotional blackmail,” as who is trying to blackmail you? It is God who calls and effectually delivers you. But God hates sin, and rightfully so, and this is the judgment He has called for, also from the foundation of the world, for the devil, his angels, and all Satan’s children. And why not? To those of us who believe in God, and know that God has saved us and snatched us from the fires, is not the end result that we hate and fear sin, and as a result more greatly bemoan our own inability to save ourselves and to bless the God who hates sin and, yet, is merciful to us though we deserve it not?
Rom 9:22-25 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: (23) And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, (24) Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? (25) As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
To know the truth is the pleasure of all Christians, and the truth is we are evil. But, blessed is the Lord who had mercy on me, a sinner!
“It was still our choice to make, however.”
No, it is GOD’S choice:
Joh_15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
They are not ordained BECAUSE they would believe. They believe BECAUSE they are ordained:
Act_13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
And those who believe not, believe not BECAUSE they are not of His sheep, and can receive nothing unless it is given to them by the Father first:
Joh 10:26-30 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. (27) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: (28) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. (29) My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. (30) I and my Father are one.
Joh 6:64-65 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. (65) And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Mat_16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
In each of these cases, it is DIVINE REVELATION that is required for a person to even KNOW the things of God. And without the CALLING of God, no one is saved.
1Co_12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
Re: the question of suicide by a believer.
Obviously a believer who acts on suicide is not acting through faith in Christ. Take a look at John from Tertullian’s testimony, was thrown into a boiling cauldron, but was protected and survived.
Adversity is inevitable in life and in death, but stress is optional, simply by faith in Christ. His Plan prevails over our plans.
There are many who might develop a false doctrine of works or of perseverance, who will rationally argue suicide mandates eternal condemnation, because we aren’t in fellowship with Him immediately prior the first death. This fails to recognize other doctrines, such as the sealing of the Holy Spirit and our sonship as members of His Royal Family. Even if we reject Him after being made part of His family, He still loves us and hasn’t removed us from His family.
Hell and everyone in it is ultimately thrown into the lake of fire and destroyed.
If so, then what is the purpose of witnessing? To what end do we spread the gospel?
“Hell and everyone in it is ultimately thrown into the lake of fire and destroyed.”
Those who are punished in the lake of fire are never utterly destroyed, but are perpetually tormented day and night:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Thanks for explaining torture and Indians and life, so the answer is that your stress is?
Yet it was indeed taken away at the ‘instigation’ of the Jews, and by the ‘order’ of Pilate, and by ‘means of the Roman soldiers’ who crucified him..... and the former of these are often charged with and killing him....It is expressly said... “His life is taken from the earth.” ( Acts 8:33 )
.... and yet no man could nor did take it away without his Father’s will, and determinate counsel, and knowledge,..... by which he was delivered up into the hands of the above persons....... by which they did to him what they did,..... or otherwise they could have had no power over him nor could any man, nor did any man, take away his life from him, without his own consent.
He voluntarily ‘surrendered himself’ or he could never have been taken... he went freely to the cross, or he could never have been led there.
He suffered himself to be nailed to the tree, and when he hung on it, he could easily have disengaged himself, and come down..... when they had him there, they could not have taken away his life had he not of himself ‘given’ up the ghost, and breathed out his life and soul.
Further Jesus stated...”I have power to take it again”
(Commentary John Gills)
An individual that commits suicide has no power but that of taking his own life....and that is weakness not strength.
There is no comparison of Jesus’s Sacrifical Offering of Himself...and that of One who commits suicide....one is fully for selfish reasons...the other is fully for the life of others and love for them.
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