Posted on 06/21/2012 8:24:00 AM PDT by fishtank
Then they do not get saved.
So babies who die go to Hell?
There is no point to going further.
I find Catholics are fond of telling other people are wrong and misrepresent their beliefs rather than simply providing a correction of the item in question. Undoubtedly next will be directing me to some nebulous and muddled Church Catechism and saying this will explain everything.
You're a classic example of the person Paul addresses in Rom 9:19-20.
That passage addresses the very argument you're bringing up.
But the fact is that God would be perfectly just if He chose to burn up the world this minute.
All the time.
Hi Harley,
Sadly, your description is spot on accurate.
... celebrating my 26th or 27th year of freedom from Rome, the “Early Church Fathers”, the papacy, the “Magisterium”, et cetera, ad nauseaum.
ALSO, I’m now celebrating the eternity future with the assurance of the Blood of the Lamb, sealed in the Word of His testimony.
“Augustine tells how once he understood God’s sovereignty, he not only realized how great was his error but he sought to recall many of his writings to burn them. I understand completely what Augustine realized because I went through the same thing.”
While I suppose they exist, I’ve never met anyone who was saved upon hearing the Calvinist message. Every Calvinist I’ve ever met started their Christian life believing they had repented, and been born again. Only later did they come to believe they were given life, born again, and THEN believed and repented.
So if free will and the need to repent to be born again - life following repentance - is heresy, why are [most] Calvinists saved by heresy?
“...but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.”
I won't. Then again, I'm not a Calvinist. I believe God has given me what I need. If I choose differently, it is surely my fault.
On the other hand, if I believe God has rigged the game so there is no way I can do anything other than sin, since he has not graced me, then I could indeed disclaim responsiblilty.
Birds gotta fly, fish gotta swim.
Happy to hear it. But no one will be justified in making the statement.
if I believe God has rigged the game so there is no way I can do anything other than sin, since he has not graced me
If a person has gotten as far as believing in God (and Christ's work) and having an understanding of what grace really is and is anguished about their condition without Him, he/she may very well be on the road to salvation.
You keep changing your position. Your position is that people are required to do something to be Saved unless they can’t. If they can’t, then God chucks Free Will out the window and decides for them.
And what about all those people who never knew there was a decision to be made? Does God send them to Hell because they didn’t get Saved because they never heard of such a thing?
The Methodists believe that God goes after us and woos us into a relationship with Him. It’s like quasi-Calvinism.
That’s what I find so disturbing about Calvinism. It’s not the poor interpretation of scripture, but the passivity and presumptuousness.
Bad doctrine leads to bad outcomes. If the Devil were to trick Christians it would be through a theological device very much like Calvinism.
“Who will have ALL men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth”
If you’ve read my other posts, you’ll see I am not denying that. God does desire the salvation of all men.
Yet, we see elsewhere that he elects, he foreordains, he predestines.
Both concepts are true. Not just one of them.
I find your summary to be very accurate.
Your prayers for my growth and wisdom in these matters will be greatly appreciated.
“If God chooses the elect, is Paul offering a false promise, or is he ignorant of God’s intentions? “
No, I’d never say that Paul or any inspired writer of Scripture is offering a false promise, or that he is ignorant.
You are walking into the purpose of the law now, which is an entire other subject. A very deep subject.
“It appears that God’s grace and mercy was a response to their choosing.” Yes, it does appear that way in the verses you cited. If that was all the Bible had to say about mankind repenting, I wouldn’t be talking about foreordination, election, predestination etc.
But we have the Romans 9 lengthy passage which I’ve cited quite a bit, as well as many other verses which talk about God foreordaining, electing, and etc. So you have to take the Scripture as a whole.
Consider that Esau tried in some manner to repent, but could not; that Pharoah hardened his heart yet God hardened Pharoah’s heart; that the dry bones were dead and gone yet it was God that gave them life; that God CHOSE Abraham, chose Israel, chose David, and etc., and speaks repeatedly about Him being the one that did the choosing; many other OT references to God’s sovereignty in salvation as well as everything else. Then when you get to the New Testament it is spelled out as in a theology handbook. It is simply declared.
Yet another example (I have posted many):
“For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover, whom He predestined, those He also called; and whom He called, those He also justified; and whom He justified, those He also glorified.” Romans 8:29-30
William Carey (some call him the father of modern missions) was passive, presumptuous?
The Pilgrims were passive? Really? Never heard that before.
And the ones I hear calling the Pilgrims presumptuous are usually God-hatin liberals.
Sure, that is typical of our prideful self at work. It's only after one really thinks about what happens in their salvation that they may understand. To illustrate let me ask every Christian here a simple question.
If people answered that question and ponder their answer, they would be Calvinists. I have yet to find a Christian who didn't say, "Christ saved me."
The Methodists believe that God goes after us and woos us into a relationship with Him. It’s like quasi-Calvinism.
As a methodist- you’ve quasi irked me.
Preveient grace is NOTHING like Calvinism
The Methodists believe that God goes after us and woos us into a relationship with Him. It’s like quasi-Calvinism.
As a Methodist- you’ve quasi irked me.
Prevenient grace is NOTHING like Calvinism
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