Posted on 04/03/2010 9:09:05 PM PDT by pissant
ROME – On Good Friday, two days before Easter, a prayer titled “Let us Pray for the Conversion of the Jews” was recited in Latin by traditionalist Catholic congregations in Italy, plus 16 sections of the Society of Saint Pius.
The ultra-conservative society, whose excommunication was lifted by Pope Benedict XVI last year, has yet to be fully reintegrated into the Catholic Church, because of its refusal to accept the reforms of the Second Vatican Council.
In 2007, in an effort to bring the traditionalist elements of the Church back into the fold, Benedict issued a “Motu Proprio” declaration allowing wider use of the 1962, pre-Vatican II Roman Missal containing this prayer, which was previously restricted to small groups. Three years ago only 30 Italian churches were affected by that decision, as opposed to the 118 that regularly use the liturgy today.
The word “conversion,” however, was not supposed to have been part of the title of this traditionalist Good Friday prayer. The official text, personally revised by the pope after Israel’s Chief Rabbinate expressed concerns regarding its content, was circulated in a note by Cardinal Bertone, theVatican’s secretary of state, in February 2008, bearing a new official title – “Oremus et pro Iudaeis,” or “Let us Pray for the Jews.” However, quite unexpectedly, that title has been changed to “Let us Pray for the Conversion of the Jews” in the brand new luxury re-edition of the missal currently flying off the shelves in Vatican bookstores.
(Excerpt) Read more at jpost.com ...
Okay, then. But I dare you to follow the shadows of the Old Covenant and not wind up realizing it was all about revealing in the fulness of time....Christ Jesus!
And I will put enmity between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel.—Genesis 3:15 NAS
How could anyone be happy or at peace knowing that their beloved relatives would suffer forever?
re: “However, standard Christian doctrine is that salvation is by faith alone, and that good works only offer evidence of the genuineness of the faith. Whether someone like Gandhi would go to purgatory or hell is I suppose a matter of theological debate; but he clearly wouldn’t be allowed in heaven due to lack of faith in Jesus. And neither would a pious Jew full of charity, love, and good works.”
Without the preservation of the Law, the Psalms, the Wisdom Literature, and the Prophets by the Jewish people, Christianity would not exist.
Knowledge of G-d and who He is was revealed by Him to the Jewish people. It is through them that the rest of the world received this knowledge of Him as well.
Jesus, the Apostles, and the early church were all Jewish. Most, if not all, of the Christian scriptures were written by Jewish Christians.
The message of the early church was that none of us can make ourselves righteous, by G-d’s standards, by our own merit. None of us can remove the guilt of our sin by good deeds -not Jew, not Greek, not Roman, not American - no one. Good deeds were commendable, but not sufficient to make us perfectly holy and righteous before a perfectly Holy and Righteous G-d.
Even the Jewish Prophets wrote how the blood of animal sacrifices were not what G-d really desired - rather, He responded to a “broken and contrite heart”. Animal sacrifices could temporaily “cover over” sin, but it could not remove the guilt of our sin forever. They could not make a person righteous inside and out.
Only G-d Himself could remove the guilt of our sin. This is what the early Christians believed and taught.
Furthermore, the Christian doctrine of faith alone in Christ for salvation all hinges on who Jesus of Nazareth is. If he truely was “G-d” in the flesh who came to redeem mankind, then he cannot be ignored. We have to make a decision about him - is he or is he not Messiah, the Son of G-d, G-d in the flesh? If he isn’t, then all Christianity falls. If he is, then He is our only hope of salvation before G-d. That’s pretty exclusive, but is based on who the person of Jesus is.
The early Christians prayed that all might come to a knowledge of salvation through Jesus the Messiah - not that they were better than anyone else. If what they believed is true, then it is the Truth for all people - not just for them. This may seem narrow, but again, if Jesus is really who He claimed to be - then it isn’t narrow - it is simply the Truth.
It’s not arrogant or narrow when a doctor reveals to us that we have a certain disease and the cure to make us better. It’s simply a message of truth being imparted. We can accept or reject the doctor’s diagnosis, how we respond to the doctor’s message will determine the consequences of that decision on our lives.
If Christians are wrong about who Jesus is, then I guess the world doesn’t have much to worry about. However, if He really is G-d, then . . .
Hum, well, isnt condemning anyone to hell not your prerogative anyway?
I’ll have to disagree with the Empire on that one, pissant.
Isaiah 43:11
Zechariah 14:9
Malachi 3:6
Isaiah 18
Yes, I do and I earnestly labor toward that end. Are you a Christian? If not, may I tell you how to become a Christian?
Not correct. Any of those Jewish ancestors who believed in the Messiah to come, the seed of Abraham who would bless the Nations, DID believe in Jesus and was thus saved. Only those who accept Christ will see the Kingdom of Heaven and thus all Christians must pray for the conversion of unbelievers. Paul tells us there will be a mass conversion of the Jews to Christ once the times of the gentiles has been fulfilled.
If you don't believe as the person praying for you believes, so what. In your mind they are praying to some non-existent God for your conversion to some non-existent truth.
So what!!!
You want to get offended (what kind of sissy is "offended" anyway?), get offended when someone threatens to remove your noggin for not converting...that an offense worth taking.
I think next year, we will be having a prayer as follows:
“Let us Pray for the Conversion of all those who are offended that we pray for their conversion”
followed by:
Let us Pray for the Conversion of all those who are offended that we pray for those who are offended”
You wrote:
“Would you say that Gandhi and Einstein “knew no better through no fault of their own” in not believing in the divinity of Jesus?”
I said nothing about “not believing in the divinity of Jesus”. I suggest you actually deal with my words rather than invent words I never said. And no, I would not say that Ghandi or Einstein knew no better, but thankfully that’s not my job and not my decision.
“I think that is playing with words to evade an inconvenient issue of religious doctrine.”
I don’t play with words - as you just did by putting words in my mouth - and I don’t believe there are any inconvenient doctrines.
The redemption happened 2,000 years ago.
Isn’t that EXACTLY what I said?
Jews before the time of Christ were saved by believing God’s promises (in a sense believing in Christ). They are in paradise and I sincerely hope my Jewish brothers and sisters receive Christ to join them there.
“And people here wonder why Jews are suspicious of evangelicals’ support for Israel.”
Don’t worry friend. People here will explain not only why you are going to hell, but also why every other Christian who is not of their particular denomination is also going to hell.
We’re lucky to be able to see so many people that are able to speak for God on the state of your soul.
Don’t think you are being singled out, though.
Don’t worry. The Eyn Sof will one day convert all non-Jews to Torah as B’nai Noach and the world will realize that everything outside of Torah are simply distractions.
As Jew who came to know the Lord and loves him, very well said my friend. I have a hard time with my family, they stayed Jewish, they regard it more a cultural anchor than a belief system. I came to Jesus not based on some esoteric experience, I came to it through logic and earnest study, by discovering the historicity and accuracy of the New Testament. Its not a blind faith but a faith based in the bedrock of facts. Kabaalism and Orthodox Judaism ruminate on the Torah and ponder it’s hidden messages and secret meanings in a futile attempt to complete the circle. G*d cannot be understood if you ignore the other 1/2 of his revelation to man. It’s just not possible. The Jew is not wrong, he is simply waiting the accept the complete message of the Lord. I think to be fair to the Catholics, that is what they pray for, not the damnation of the Jews, the finger wagging, “Your wrong” recriminations, but the earnest hope their eyes are opened and fully embrace their wonderful COMPLETE heritage.
Actually,I’ve come to suspect “Christians” who support Obama aren’t really Christians at all. Particularly if they’re even moderately informed.
re: The Jew is not wrong, he is simply waiting the accept the complete message of the Lord.
G-d bless you, pburge01. Thank you for sharing your testimony. The Jewish people and Israel are precious to all true Christians. They are G-d’s people and are still tied to His promises to ultimately redeem them back to Himself.
This is clear in the scriptures and it is one of the major reasons why the United States has historically supported Israel and why Evangelical Christians are supporters of Israel, too.
re: Don’t worry friend. People here will explain not only why you are going to hell, but also why every other Christian who is not of their particular denomination is also going to hell.
I think what you don’t understand about Christianity is that they believe the Bible teaches that “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of G-d”. No one, on their own personal righteousness and merit are righteous enough to remove the guilt of their sin and live in the presence of a perfect, holy, sinless G-d.
In other words, all of us are in the same sinking boat - all mankind stands condemned by our sin before G-d - those that grab onto the life ring thrown out to us (in the person and work of Jesus) for salvation by G-d are not “better” than anyone else. No, they are just “rescued”, not “better”.
Is it arrogance to tell others in the sinking boat about the availability of that life rope so that they may be rescued too - especially if that is the only life rope that is long enough and strong enough to save?
However, as to condemnation by Christians, I agree with you that if they do that they are mistaken. Jesus Himself said that He did not come to condemn the world, but to save it. He said the world already stands condemned - but, His desire is that all - yes, all may come to salvation through Him. He said, “I AM the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father, but through Me.” His offer of salvation is available to all who are willing to receive it.
It is the Christian’s calling and responsibility to tell the whole world about that one and only way of salvation. That is narrow, but it is not arrogant - at least it shouldn’t be. The question is: What are you going to do about Jesus? If He is really who He said He is, then He is of primary importance to every single person. If He is a fraud, then I guess no one has anything to worry about. On the other hand it stands to reason that everyone should seriously consider what He said and did and evaluate those claims by logic, reason, archeology, and history. You won’t find every single question answered, and faith is definitely a part of the decision, but it is not a total “leap in the dark”.
“Is it arrogance to tell others in the sinking boat about the availability of that life rope so that they may be rescued too - especially if that is the only life rope that is long enough and strong enough to save?”
My point is that it is indeed the height of arrogance to throw someone your rope and tell them that is the only way to salvation. Let them be saved by the only One who matters, not by the myriad of false gods among men that are sure they have the “one true path” for all to follow.
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