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Catholics pray for 'Jews' conversion'
Jerusalem Post ^ | 4/3/10 | staff

Posted on 04/03/2010 9:09:05 PM PDT by pissant

ROME – On Good Friday, two days before Easter, a prayer titled “Let us Pray for the Conversion of the Jews” was recited in Latin by traditionalist Catholic congregations in Italy, plus 16 sections of the Society of Saint Pius.

The ultra-conservative society, whose excommunication was lifted by Pope Benedict XVI last year, has yet to be fully reintegrated into the Catholic Church, because of its refusal to accept the reforms of the Second Vatican Council.

In 2007, in an effort to bring the traditionalist elements of the Church back into the fold, Benedict issued a “Motu Proprio” declaration allowing wider use of the 1962, pre-Vatican II Roman Missal containing this prayer, which was previously restricted to small groups. Three years ago only 30 Italian churches were affected by that decision, as opposed to the 118 that regularly use the liturgy today.

The word “conversion,” however, was not supposed to have been part of the title of this traditionalist Good Friday prayer. The official text, personally revised by the pope after Israel’s Chief Rabbinate expressed concerns regarding its content, was circulated in a note by Cardinal Bertone, theVatican’s secretary of state, in February 2008, bearing a new official title – “Oremus et pro Iudaeis,” or “Let us Pray for the Jews.” However, quite unexpectedly, that title has been changed to “Let us Pray for the Conversion of the Jews” in the brand new luxury re-edition of the missal currently flying off the shelves in Vatican bookstores.

(Excerpt) Read more at jpost.com ...


TOPICS:
KEYWORDS: catholics; convert; evangelism; fertility; goodfriday; jews; passover; pharaoh; rome
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As we should.
1 posted on 04/03/2010 9:09:05 PM PDT by pissant
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To: pissant
As we should.

Speak for yourself.

2 posted on 04/03/2010 9:16:31 PM PDT by drubyfive
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To: drubyfive

I guess you think it not worthwhile to convert non Christians?


3 posted on 04/03/2010 9:17:43 PM PDT by pissant (THE Conservative party: www.falconparty.com)
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To: pissant
> As we should.

Ummm, ok... do you also pray for the conversion of the Hindus? Buddhists? Muslims?

If not, why not? Seems only fair to want all non-Christians to become believers, not just Jews; maybe I'm missing something. I wonder why only the Jews are mentioned in the prayer.

Understand, I'm not arguing or criticizing, I'm just a bit confused and would appreciate clarification of your comment.

4 posted on 04/03/2010 9:22:49 PM PDT by dayglored (Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government!)
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To: pissant

A Jew converting to Christianity would have to agree that his beloved ancestors are in hell but that he or she hopes to do better. Such a person would obviously not be worthy of salvation. Until Christian doctrine on salvation only by faith in Jesus changes, this impediment is insuperable.


5 posted on 04/03/2010 9:22:54 PM PDT by devere
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To: pissant

I now use an Angelus Missal (SSPX). And it says “For the Conversion of the Jews” as the title for the prayer. Oh, well. It’s copyright is 2004. I don’t think this has the updated prayer. No loss.


6 posted on 04/03/2010 9:23:00 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Part of the Vast Catholic Conspiracy (hat tip to Kells))
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To: pissant
As we should.

As we do.

7 posted on 04/03/2010 9:24:00 PM PDT by steve86 (Acerbic by nature, not nurture)
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To: devere

Take that up with God, in the meantime, we’ll continue to pray for Jews and others to find salvation through Christ the King.


8 posted on 04/03/2010 9:24:07 PM PDT by pissant (THE Conservative party: www.falconparty.com)
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To: pissant

I’m a Jew who is not interested in being converted.


9 posted on 04/03/2010 9:24:09 PM PDT by drubyfive
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To: dayglored

Ummm, ok... do you also pray for the conversion of the Hindus? Buddhists? Muslims?

Yup. We not only pray, we evangelize.


10 posted on 04/03/2010 9:24:59 PM PDT by pissant (THE Conservative party: www.falconparty.com)
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To: pissant
Don't all religion believe they area the correct religion? We should all expect other religions to believe they are right and we are wrong. Does the Berakhot that Jewish men traditionally say, thank G-d that they were not born gentiles? And other prayers call for the destruction of heretics and gentiles? It doesn't offend me.
11 posted on 04/03/2010 9:25:09 PM PDT by nickcarraway
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To: dayglored

You wrote:

“Ummm, ok... do you also pray for the conversion of the Hindus? Buddhists? Muslims?”

Yes. Page 552 right after the Jews: “For Conversion of Unbelievers”. Before Jews we pray “For Schismatics and Heretics”.

“maybe I’m missing something.”

Yes, you are.

“I wonder why only the Jews are mentioned in the prayer.”

Because it’s for them. Other prayers are said for others. It’s not difficult to understand. Outside of the baptized the Jews come first. That is as it should be.


12 posted on 04/03/2010 9:26:02 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Part of the Vast Catholic Conspiracy (hat tip to Kells))
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To: drubyfive

With good fortune, someday that may change.


13 posted on 04/03/2010 9:26:07 PM PDT by pissant (THE Conservative party: www.falconparty.com)
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To: drubyfive
I’m a Jew who is not interested in being converted.

Good for you.

That fact, however, has nothing to do with the obligation of religious believers to pray for you - you're not their religious guide or leader.

14 posted on 04/03/2010 9:27:45 PM PDT by Jim Noble (Let tyrants shake their iron rod, and slavery clank her galling chains)
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To: devere

You wrote:

“A Jew converting to Christianity would have to agree that his beloved ancestors are in hell but that he or she hopes to do better.”

Uh, no.

“Such a person would obviously not be worthy of salvation.”

Anyone who comes to Christ can be made worthy by Him.

“Until Christian doctrine on salvation only by faith in Jesus changes, this impediment is insuperable.”

We don’t believe in sola fide. We do believe in the necessity of faith in Christ, but we don’t (and we can’t and wouldn’t) condemn to hell those who knew no better through no fault of their own.


15 posted on 04/03/2010 9:28:45 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Part of the Vast Catholic Conspiracy (hat tip to Kells))
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To: vladimir998; pissant

Thank you for that excellent explication. I understand.


16 posted on 04/03/2010 9:30:54 PM PDT by dayglored (Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government!)
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To: pissant

And people here wonder why Jews are suspicious of evangelicals’ support for Israel.


17 posted on 04/03/2010 9:31:37 PM PDT by drubyfive
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To: devere

Many Jews become Christians. I know preachers who are former Jews.


18 posted on 04/03/2010 9:31:56 PM PDT by Persevero (Ask yourself: "What does the Left want me to do?" Then go do the opposite.)
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To: drubyfive

Orthodox Jews say prayers against gentiles.

Perhaps both should stop, but if we think our faith is true and good, it is ok, IMHO, to pray that others find it.


19 posted on 04/03/2010 9:32:20 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: dayglored

I actually have relatives of each of those faiths with the exception of Buddhist (AFAIK). I do pray for their conversions.


20 posted on 04/03/2010 9:33:02 PM PDT by steve86 (Acerbic by nature, not nurture)
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To: pissant

Christians in evangelical denominations commonly pray for evangelism across the entire world. Very few seem to get bent out of shape about that. Is this simply the Catholic counterpart of Jews for Jesus?


21 posted on 04/03/2010 9:34:14 PM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (I am in America but not of America (per bible: am in the world but not of it))
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To: dayglored

Ummm, ok... do you also pray for the conversion of the Hindus? Buddhists? Muslims?

Actually we do. We also pray for the conversion of atheists, Catholics and other Christians - we are all sinners and need conversion of out hearts. This is a tempest in a teapot.


22 posted on 04/03/2010 9:34:34 PM PDT by Gumdrop
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To: Persevero

Heard a factoid from an evangelical theology professor once. Jews who grow up in Catholic neighborhoods usually become Protestants as adults.


23 posted on 04/03/2010 9:35:45 PM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (I am in America but not of America (per bible: am in the world but not of it))
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To: pissant

After looking at the different versions of the prayer at the wikipedia page, the new versions seems entirely watered down: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Friday_Prayer_for_the_Jews


24 posted on 04/03/2010 9:38:12 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Part of the Vast Catholic Conspiracy (hat tip to Kells))
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To: vladimir998

Would you say that Gandhi and Einstein “knew no better through no fault of their own” in not believing in the divinity of Jesus?
I think that is playing with words to evade an inconvenient issue of religious doctrine.


25 posted on 04/03/2010 9:45:28 PM PDT by devere
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To: drubyfive

I’m with you, Druby. I am a proud Jew, and I have NO need to convert to any other religion to achieve communion with G-d. I would highly resent any attempt by anyone to either imply that my religion was somehow deficient and needed to be changed or that I could not reach G-d through my own religion, only through theirs.

As for thanking G-d that I was not born a gentile, in the Jewish prayerbook, I see that this has been quoted out of context (of course!) by others in this thread. It actually refers to the fact that Jews are required to perform certain religious precepts (mitzvos) which are not required to be performed by non-Jews, and we are thanking G-d for the privilege of having to perform these mitzvos. Also, male Jews are required to perform mitzvos that Jewish women are exempt from, and thus male Jews thank G-d that they were not born women, in gratitude for the extra mitvos they are to perform. NOT because they are putting down women, and NOT because they are putting down non-Jews.

When you have the WHOLE story, not just bits and pieces, it certainly puts a far different spin on things.

As for you FReepers who think I need a different religion, kindly take yours and stuff it wherever you see fit. We’ve been fine for 5,000 years without YOU.


26 posted on 04/03/2010 9:46:16 PM PDT by EinNYC
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To: vladimir998

At the time of redemption, all, including devout Christians, will come to understand the true meaning of the unity of God.


27 posted on 04/03/2010 9:46:32 PM PDT by Mack Truck (C.A.I.R. is a repressive terrorist front group and sworn enemy of freedom in America..)
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To: pissant
Allow me as a Jew to get in the middle of this, and ask...1) WHY is this being reported on Easter? 2) Who benefits from this being reported?

Don't fall for the propaganda of the athiestic far Left, who despise both religious Catholics and Jews alike.

Question the questioner.

28 posted on 04/03/2010 9:47:14 PM PDT by montag813
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To: Persevero

Some Jews become Muslims, and others become Nazis.
And a large number voted for Barry Obama.


29 posted on 04/03/2010 9:50:09 PM PDT by devere
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To: devere

Yes I know, lots of people become lots of things.

Point is, there is nothing unheard of about a Jew converting to Christianity.

Jesus was a Jew. So were all of the disciples.


30 posted on 04/03/2010 9:51:29 PM PDT by Persevero (Ask yourself: "What does the Left want me to do?" Then go do the opposite.)
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To: drubyfive
I’m a Jew who is not interested in being converted.

I will continue to pray for you and all others, because I care. If I didn't care, I wouldn't.

If you don't believe, where is the harm?

I would think that if you believed that we are following the wrong path, you would include us in your prayers.

God took on a human form, Jesus Christ, who was also a practicing Jew. Tomorrow, we celebrate His Resurrection from the dead. This Jew, Jesus, bridges all Christians to His Jewish heritage, making it our heritage also.

Please pray for me, as I, a person with feet of clay, need all the prayers that I can get!

31 posted on 04/03/2010 9:54:56 PM PDT by mckenzie7 (Democrats = Trough Sloppers!)
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To: montag813
Don't fall for the propaganda of the athiestic far Left, who despise both religious Catholics and Jews alike. Question the questioner.

Point well taken!

32 posted on 04/03/2010 9:56:13 PM PDT by mckenzie7 (Democrats = Trough Sloppers!)
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To: devere

And just what is that supposed to imply? That non-Jews have not converted to Islam? How many Jews do you know of who were Nazis? There were barely any Orthodox Jews who voted for Obama. The vast majority of Jews who unfortunately voted for Obama were those who were assimiliated Jews, to whom a close relationship to their political party is more important than a close relationship to their authentic G-d. You show the world what a moron you are by such idiotic comments.


33 posted on 04/03/2010 9:56:34 PM PDT by EinNYC
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To: Persevero

Yes, and some of my best friends are observant Jews who studied the history and tenents of traditional Judaism in order to officially convert from Christianity to Judaism.


34 posted on 04/03/2010 9:58:50 PM PDT by Mack Truck (C.A.I.R. is a repressive terrorist front group and sworn enemy of freedom in America..)
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To: EinNYC
As for you FReepers who think I need a different religion, kindly take yours and stuff it wherever you see fit. We’ve been fine for 5,000 years without YOU.Divide and conquer, that is the strategy.

Divide is happening, but conquering is in the future if we don't shape up and get a grip.

Maybe our form of worship is different than yours, but our God is the same.

35 posted on 04/03/2010 10:02:24 PM PDT by mckenzie7 (Democrats = Trough Sloppers!)
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To: EinNYC

“And just what is that supposed to imply?”

It was obviously supposed to imply that not everything every Jew does, including conversion to Christianity, is supportable by logical and carefully considered thought.

“You show the world what a moron you are by such idiotic comments.”

An excellent illustration of the previous sentence!


36 posted on 04/03/2010 10:02:24 PM PDT by devere
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To: Mack Truck

I know, people convert to Judaism. Hall of Famer Rod Carew comes to mind (hat tip to Adam Sandler’s Hannukah song). Also Dr. Laura, but I think she unconverted after she converted. . .


37 posted on 04/03/2010 10:03:24 PM PDT by Persevero (Ask yourself: "What does the Left want me to do?" Then go do the opposite.)
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To: devere; NYer; Salvation; Petronski
A Jew converting to Christianity would have to agree that his beloved ancestors are in hell but that he or she hopes to do better.

Not quite. From the Third Chapter of the First Letter of Saint Peter:

18 Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God, being put to death indeed in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit, 19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison: 20 Which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water.

Between His Death and Resurrection, Jesus descended to the realm of the dead, bringing His message of salvation to those who were dead and yet not damned to Hell. So your argument doesn't stand.

38 posted on 04/03/2010 10:04:12 PM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007 (To view the FR@Alabama ping list, click on my profile!)
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To: montag813; All

Exactimo...:) They’re hitting us when we’re down already. We all need to stay focused as they’re working overtime on dividing us. The forthcoming tea parties next...


39 posted on 04/03/2010 10:05:59 PM PDT by bronxville
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To: drubyfive

“And people here wonder why Jews are suspicious of evangelicals’ support for Israel.”

Or why they vote for democrats and secularists, instead of for those aforementioned evangelicals who express support for Israel.


40 posted on 04/03/2010 10:12:22 PM PDT by COgamer
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To: devere

Why single out Jews as people who make decisions not based on “logical and carefully considered thought”? Members of the human race, regardless of their religious beliefs or lack thereof, make errors from time to time. Only G-d is perfect.

You have not altered my original assessment of you one iota.


41 posted on 04/03/2010 10:13:31 PM PDT by EinNYC
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To: montag813

It was reported by The Jerusalem Post because the Society of St. Pius changed the liturgy. The Vatican had approved it but there was a mistake about the wording of the prayer’s title. It was reported because it was news.


42 posted on 04/03/2010 10:13:40 PM PDT by drubyfive
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To: montag813

Thank you! And Happy Passover!


43 posted on 04/03/2010 10:16:34 PM PDT by Lauren BaRecall ("Healthcare is today's Prohibition" - Dennis Miller)
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To: pissant

I pray for Catholic Priests to stop diddling boys.


44 posted on 04/03/2010 10:18:26 PM PDT by Uncle Miltie (Civil Disobedience: Refuse Unconstitutional 0bummerCare. Let them try to arrest millions.)
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To: Persevero

Dr. Laura is one confused, cocky lady, by anybody’s standards. Her father was Jewish, her mother Catholic, from Italy. as I recall. Would that Dr. Laura practiced what she preached, either as a Christian or a Jew.

Orthodox Jewish clergy by tradition make it very hard for people to convert to Judaism and actually do their best to dissuade people wanting to study for conversion. Only those who are really serious and study long and hard get converted. Too bad, really, because Judaism’s intellectual and spiritual aspects would surely be chosen by many more people if Jews were to do religious outreach to non-Jews.


45 posted on 04/03/2010 10:18:52 PM PDT by Mack Truck (C.A.I.R. is a repressive terrorist front group and sworn enemy of freedom in America..)
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To: Uncle Miltie

I pray one day that protestants open their eyes to their own pedophile preachers buggering there youngens. BTW, I thought I saw Ted Faggard on TV the other day.


46 posted on 04/03/2010 10:22:45 PM PDT by pissant (THE Conservative party: www.falconparty.com)
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To: EinNYC

“Why single out Jews as people who make decisions not based on “logical and carefully considered thought”?”

The current discussion is about some Jews converting to Christianity. It was asserted that the fact that some do it is evidence that it is reasonable and correct.

“You have not altered my original assessment of you one iota.”

I really don’t care! LOL


47 posted on 04/03/2010 10:24:49 PM PDT by devere
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To: COgamer
Or why they vote for democrats and secularists

Yes, that too. But you can be on the political right as a Jew and still feel queasy about anything having to do with the end times.

48 posted on 04/03/2010 10:25:08 PM PDT by drubyfive
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To: pissant

Nothing personal, dude. We’ve both been around here a long time.

Most FReepers have deeply held religious beliefs; that’s part of what makes us conservative. And while we each believe our own set is perfectly correct, it would be nice if in this space we don’t slam the other guy’s religion.

It is quite offensive to us Jews to have Catholics presume we need converting. Catholics believe that, and we understand their belief. But I would prefer they not make a public stink.

So, my b*tchslap to the Catholics who presume to tell us to convert. If they want to offend, then offenses are quite easy to find both directions, eh?


49 posted on 04/03/2010 10:31:00 PM PDT by Uncle Miltie (Civil Disobedience: Refuse Unconstitutional 0bummerCare. Let them try to arrest millions.)
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To: D-fendr
"Orthodox Jews say prayers against gentiles."

Show me. Not in my Chabad Synagogue.

50 posted on 04/03/2010 10:32:49 PM PDT by Uncle Miltie (Civil Disobedience: Refuse Unconstitutional 0bummerCare. Let them try to arrest millions.)
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