Why Noah's Flood was Local

[CT-Freeper]

Of course I am aware of the story of Noah's Ark. Genesis chapter 7. But honestly, all I am saying is that I don't look at the Grand Canyon, or any other canyons in the US or across the world and think to myself that this is proof that a Great Flood once covered the entire globe.

All I see that water is a powerful instrument that can over time create entirely new landscapes.

[truthfinder9]

How does a global flood decide to carve out a massive canyon in one particular spot underneath the floodwaters?

[P-Marlowe]

For example: "Christians who actually believe that God made the heavens and the earth and all that in them is in 6 days."

So you don't believe that? Did not God write these words with his own hand upon the stone tablets:

Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. (Exodus 20:8-11 KJV)

You want to deny what the Lord himself wrote? And you claim that I am the one who does not believe the bible? That is what the Bible says. Simply put, do you believe it? If not then who is the bible believer and who is the bible denier?

No, they believe in a watered-down Bible, misconstrued and force-fitted onto personal beliefs that have no basis in reality. When people like them destory the credibility of the Bible by their misbelief, they need corrected.

The credibility of the Bible is not dependent upon people believing it. The Bible is credible because it is the word of God. I expect people to find reasons not to believe it. It is in the nature of man to disbelieve the Bible. Nobody is going to perish because Ken Ham believes in a literal 6 day creation. God himself said he did it in 6 days. Who are you to argue with Him?

Or maybe try studying the Bible on your own instead of having other people do it for you.

You are the one who needs to have ancillary materials to prove your point. I just quoted scripture. Scripture says God did it in 6 days. I don't need Ken Ham to tell me that. It was written by the hand of God. You are the one who needs people to tell you that the Lord didn't really mean it when he said he did it.

As far as the flood goes, again you are relying upon ancillary documents and evidence to prove your point. The Bible is quite clear that all mountains that were under the heavens were covered and that all flesh that was under the heavens was destroyed. Now if you can find me a spot on the earth that is not under the heavens, then I'll admit that perhaps that particular area was not covered by the flood.

Go ahead and keep on turning people away from the Bible.

I just direct them to it. It is God's job to make them believe it. Or have you decided that God needs your help for that one too? If someone has a heart for God, they will believe the Bible. If they don't, they'll look for excuses to deny it's truth.

[HairOfTheDog]

The discussions of this stuff are fascinating to me, regardless of whether I ever think I know the answer.

[Corin Stormhands]

Well, there's that. ;-)

[truthfinder9]

"For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. (Exodus 20:8-11 KJV) "

Sorry, but this classic "proof-texting" doesn't work, here's why:

Exodus 20:11 is often held up as undeniable proof of 24-hour creation days. If that is true, what of Leviticus 25:1-4, which uses the creation week pattern in terms of years? Apparently the creation week is used as a pattern of “one out of seven” in both cases, not a real-time reference. A similar type of pattern is the eight day “Feast of the Tabernacles” in Leviticus 23:33-36. It celebrated God’s protection in the desert that lasted forty years — obviously eight days is not a one-to-one correlation with forty years. Moses authored both of these verses, which adds further strength to this conclusion.


"As far as the flood goes, again you are relying upon ancillary documents and evidence to prove your point."

No, I'm relying on the original Hebrew texts. How is that ancillary? They seem to be the original source to me.


There's a difference between quoting scripture and reading what it actually states.

[Mrs. Darla Ruth Schwerin]

The global flood didn't decide it, God did. God decide to put that mass there, as He knew a flood would be necessary. Once it is realized that God decides what goes where, the rest is easy. You learn not to fret over much of anything...

More to your point, there's such a thing as wind and water forces and different strengths involved with the layers. A fraction of what occurred with wind and water forces, showed itself with Katrina and any other wind or water disaster you'd like to apply here...

[CT-Freeper]

Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. (Exodus 20:8-11 KJV)

I have always understood that the Bible is the inspired Word of God, as recorded by Man. It is prone to mistakes, since Man is inherently imperfect. Maybe it was slightly altered to fit Man's understanding of the World at the time. The Holy Spirit still flowed through the writers, in order for them to be inspired to record the Lord’s message, but it isn’t necessarily word-for-word the honest, literal Truth of what happened.

IMHO.

[P-Marlowe]

"For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. (Exodus 20:8-11 KJV) "

Do you believe that, or not? Yes or no?

[Mrs. Darla Ruth Schwerin]

Most likely, that is the first impression that many, many people have. I never used to think of it all in terms of a Great Flood, either...

Water is an extremely powerful force that God uses quite successfully. Or we could chalk it up to, A Weather Machine...

[P-Marlowe]

I have always understood that the Bible is the inspired Word of God, as recorded by Man. It is prone to mistakes, since Man is inherently imperfect. Maybe it was slightly altered to fit Man's understanding of the World at the time. The Holy Spirit still flowed through the writers, in order for them to be inspired to record the Lord’s message, but it isn’t necessarily word-for-word the honest, literal Truth of what happened.

You can say that about every single verse in the bible. Who are you to determine what is or is not true in the bible, especially in the ten commandments? Do you not believe that God is perfectly capable of preserving his word (especially the words he wrote with his own hand upon the tablets of stone)?

When we start claiming that everything we don't want to believe has been handed down imperfectly we are left without a foundation. We have nothing to base our beliefs on except what we choose to believe. If you want to believe that homosexual behavior is just peachy fine with God, all you need to do is to claim that the verses which condemn it have been altered. If you want to believe that drunkeness and fornication are OK with God, just believe that the verses which condemn those activities were altered or misunderstood.

If you start by messing with the Ten Commandments, then anything and everything is up for grabs.

[HairOfTheDog]

What do you think of the flood account?

[P-Marlowe]

Exodus 20:11 is often held up as undeniable proof of 24-hour creation days. If that is true, what of Leviticus 25:1-4, which uses the creation week pattern in terms of years? Apparently the creation week is used as a pattern of “one out of seven” in both cases, not a real-time reference. A similar type of pattern is the eight day “Feast of the Tabernacles” in Leviticus 23:33-36. It celebrated God’s protection in the desert that lasted forty years — obviously eight days is not a one-to-one correlation with forty years. Moses authored both of these verses, which adds further strength to this conclusion.

At first I thought you were capable of making a cogent argument until I realized that you lifted that statement (without acknowledgement) from Here.

Earlier you posted a series of statements that you apparently lifted from Here. And you have the nerve to tell me I don't have the ability to think for myself (that I'm just a parrot for Ken Ham) when you are running all over this board posting quotes from other people and pretending (or at least leaving the impression) that they are your own?

Have you stated anything on this thread that is your own original thought? Do you have anything to say that hasn't already been said by one of those to whom you blindly follow?

[Corin Stormhands]

What do you think of the flood account?

Well, I believe the Bible is the true, inspired Word of God.

Where I think problems come in is in our ability to interpret what God said. So, I accept the Biblical account of the flood as a matter of faith.

Bottom line is though, it's not really about how much water there was. The points to take away from the story of the flood are:

1) God is looking for His people to be faithful and there will be judgment for those who are not.

2) Noah "found grace in the eyes of the Lord." Noah was faithful to do what God commanded in spite of being ridculed.

3) God gave the promise through the sign of the rainbow that He would not destroy the earth in that manner again.

Having said that, whether all the animals got on the boat, whether that's how the dinosaurs were wiped out, whether the flood covered the entire globe, how Noah got all them critters in the boat are interesting parts of the story about which we can speculate.

[bobdsmith]

Perhaps the flood was local and God killed all the other animals and people outside the flood zone automatically. Noah put a few local animals on the ark (whatever he could collect in time)

God then carved out the grand canyon and mountains and stuff and kept the ark protected via some sort of supernatural shielding.

After the flood God recreated the non-local animals and put them down where they were previously.

That explains everything.

[HairOfTheDog]

Thanks :~D Something to ponder :~D

[blue-duncan]

"There's a difference between quoting scripture and reading what it actually states"

And there is a difference between reading scripture and understanding it. Seven is used in scripture as the symbol of completion, perfection (seven seals, seven trumpets seven vials etc). You compare apples and oranges when you try to make days equal months equal years unless the scriptures tell us to in the particular instance, like when the Children of Israel go into exile for seventy years to fulfill the sabbath years they had ignored.

Further, the account of a six day creation in Exodus 20 is consistent with the Genesis record of creation and no where in scripture is the time of creation other than six days. The Exodus account is the Law and it uses the same Hebrew word for day that God used in Genesis. If He meant a different time period the Law would have been specific since He was going to provide a double portion of manna for the seventh day. If the Genesis day and the Exodus day were other than the usual sundown to sundown a lot of manna would fall on the sixth day.

[PetroniusMaximus]

The line or reasoning used by the anti-literalists on this thread is hauntingly familiar. It is the same line of reasoning used by "modernist" and "progressive" scholars of a generation or two previous.

These are the folks who claimed that God didn't part the Red Sea - that it was actually just a thin creek at the time of the Israelite's crossing.

These are the folks who claimed that that Jesus didn't miraculously divide the loaves and fished - that he just started the group sharing and people fell in with the spirit of giving and offered up their own meals hidden in there robes and bags.

These are the folks who claimed that these and a hundred other "miracles" in the Bible would present an insurmountable stumbling block to the "modern" anti-supernatural mindset of the day and needed to be removed or radically reinterpreted so as not to present an offense.

Many of these scholars and teachers did what they did in good faith, believing that their effort was an attempt to "protect" the Bible from the forces of ignorance that would bring it's central message into ill-repute. But one only need look at the fruit of the Biblical Modernists and other similar movements to see that this methodology leads, slowly and inexorably to unbelief, apostasy and moral darkness.


To many of the "opponents" on this thread - I appeal to you to take your stand on the Word of God, even if it is unfashionable or anti-intellectual. The Almighty has shown, many times, down through history that He is strong enough to preserve it, and the one who trusts in His Word will not be put to shame.

[Poser]

"After the flood God recreated the non-local animals and put them down where they were previously. "

You can't have it both ways. Either you take the Bible literally or you don't. If you are a literalist, then every animal on earth was on the ark x2 and every square inch of earth was under water.

[Alex Murphy]

Thanks for the ping to that article!

You make a good case with these empires falling simultaneously. A lot of this flood/creation stuff I chalk up to bad date-setting myself. Years ago, I remember reading a "Biblical Archeology Today" article on some excavations taking place in the city of Jericho. IIRC the archaeologists did find evidence of Jericho's city wall having been destroyed, but the dating of the damage/reconstruction didn't match their expectations for when Joshua led the Israelites against that city. Their conclusion (ready for this?) was that Joshua 6:20 wasn't factual, and that when Israel laid siege to that city, there was no supernatural event that brought the walls down. No mention was made that their dating of the ruins might be in error, which (if adjusted) would make the damage found match up with the account in Joshua!