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What Really Brought Down the Boeing 737 Max?
New York Times - MSN.com ^ | 20 September 2019 | William Langewiesche

Posted on 09/21/2019 11:38:36 PM PDT by zeestephen

What we had in the two downed airplanes was a textbook failure of airmanship. In broad daylight, these pilots couldn’t decipher a variant of a simple runaway trim, and they ended up flying too fast at low altitude, neglecting to throttle back and leading their passengers over an aerodynamic edge into oblivion. [Extreme length]

(Excerpt) Read more at msn.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Crime/Corruption; Extended News; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: 737; 737max; aerospace; aviation; biased; boeing; boeing737max; corruption; criminalenterprise; crooks; eurotrolls; isis; islam; mcas; newyork; newyorkcity; newyorkslimes; newyorktimes; paidarticle; piloterror; toldyaso; whineywhineygirls; williamlangewiesche
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To: Flick Lives

“No amount of “airmanship” can overcome a fatally flawed software system which intercedes in control of the aircraft to disastrous consequence. The only ‘fix’ in these circumstances is to disable those computer systems.”

In Boeing FBW system, pilot inputs over ride the computers.

In Airbus FBW system, pilot inputs do not.


41 posted on 09/22/2019 7:53:03 AM PDT by ltc8k6
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To: Laslo Fripp

It used to be that a majority of airline pilots were former military pilots. So not only did they have the military ethos of how to handle all things in life but also incredible airmanship experience including combat. Much different mindset and skills than pilots who come up purely through civilian channels.


42 posted on 09/22/2019 7:54:19 AM PDT by Bonemaker (invictus maneo)
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To: Moonman62
At that point they were in an overspeed condition. If they had been competent pilots they would have pulled back on the throttles and MCAS would have been deactivated automatically. They didn’t need to know that MCAS existed.

True, but they also had the stall warning blaring. I believe that most pilots would consider a stall to be a more immediate concern than over speed and the corrective actions are basically the exact opposite of an over speed.

43 posted on 09/22/2019 7:59:33 AM PDT by Fraxinus (My opinion, worth what you paid.)
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To: Fraxinus
I believe that most pilots would consider a stall to be a more immediate concern than over speed and the corrective actions are basically the exact opposite of an over speed.

It is almost impossible for a stall and an over speed to occur simultaneously. In order for this to occur, the plane would have to pull more than 9 Gs.

Competent pilots would recognize they had an AOA malfunction.

44 posted on 09/22/2019 8:16:21 AM PDT by FtrPilot
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To: Fraxinus

True, but they also had the stall warning blaring. I believe that most pilots would consider a stall to be a more immediate concern than over speed and the corrective actions are basically the exact opposite of an over speed.

...

The stick shaker was activated which was a stall warning.

But the pilots retracted the flaps, which shouldn’t be done when there is a stall warning.

Had they left the flaps where they were then MCAS would not have been activated.


45 posted on 09/22/2019 8:31:52 AM PDT by Moonman62 (Charity comes from wealth.)
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To: zeestephen

Strange. Boeing admits that they screwed up. And it sure is taking a long time to fix all of those screw ups. The list is long.


46 posted on 09/22/2019 8:50:04 AM PDT by Revel
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To: pepsionice

That is true, and US/UK pilots are experienced and have “air sense.”

It is often discussed how badly automation of the cockpit is harming piloting skills and judgment.


47 posted on 09/22/2019 9:43:57 AM PDT by Hulka
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To: Zhang Fei

“The United States Navy manages to instill a sense of this in its fledgling fighter pilots by ramming them through rigorous classroom instruction and then requiring them to fly at bank angles without limits, including upside down.”

Air Force, too. And includes spin training during fighter UPT

Air Force does not really classify anything as acrobatic unless it exceeds 90-degrees of bank or nose high/low.

Civilians consider something like a 30-degree bank angle as borderline acrobatic. May be misinformed on that since its been decades since I flew civilian.

As a USAF pilot (A-10 and F-15E), anything less than 4-G’s and 90-degrees of bank while in the traffic pattern is considered weak.


48 posted on 09/22/2019 9:49:33 AM PDT by Hulka
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To: zeestephen
Juan Brown - Aviation analysis on the interwebs

blancolirio Full Playlist - Boeing 737-8-9 MAX crashes

7

49 posted on 09/22/2019 9:51:37 AM PDT by infool7 (Your mistakes are not what define you, it's how gracefully you recover from them that does.)
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To: Moonman62

Runaway trim is simple and easily handled by first world pilots.


50 posted on 09/22/2019 9:54:13 AM PDT by Hulka
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To: pepsionice
I watched an interview over the past year...

Wow, that's a long interview. {:0)

51 posted on 09/22/2019 9:55:56 AM PDT by MileHi (Liberalism is an ideology of parasites, hypocrites, grievance mongers, victims, and control freaks.)
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To: lowbuck

Well stated (A-10/F-15E pilot) and yes, big difference as you point out.

;-)


52 posted on 09/22/2019 9:56:36 AM PDT by Hulka
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To: Moonman62
It seems that due to bad sensor inputs, MCAS ordered a deadly nose down configuration soon after takeoff. In reaction, the Ethiopian Air pilots tried to pull the yoke up in order to raise the nose of their aircraft. MCAS though ordered strong elevator trim down, creating aerodynamic forces that locked up the trim mechanism. The Ethiopian Air flight crew did as prescribed and repeatedly turned off power to the trim mechanism and then turned it back on. That was unavailing and the aircraft was lost.

The reaction that you prescribe -- pulling back on the throttle -- was not the intuitive or trained response to the deadly condition that the Ethiopian Air flight crew confronted. The initial malfunction of the MCAS system was potentially lethal and set in motion a series of events and crew reactions that led to the crash. A superior pilot and crew might have averted the disaster, but the 737 MAX is supposed to be flown by pilots and crews of ordinary experience and ability, not by a select few of extraordinary ability.

53 posted on 09/22/2019 10:59:59 AM PDT by Rockingham
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It seems that due to bad sensor inputs,

...

The stick shaker activated shortly after takeoff because of a bad alpha vane on the left side. At that point MCAS was not activated because the flaps were extended.

Competent pilots would have taken one of two actions.

The could believe the stick shaker and taken action to prevent a stall. This would include leaving the flaps extended. They did not do that.

They could believe the stick shaker was wrong due to a bad sensor. In that case they could compare the left and right side instruments with the backup instruments. That would have told them there was a bad sensor on the left side. The fix was to simply switch both the left and right instruments to the sensors on the right side. Had they done that, MCAS never would have activated and they could have flown back to the airport.

These incompetent pilots took neither action and they crashed the plane.


54 posted on 09/22/2019 11:47:31 AM PDT by Moonman62 (Charity comes from wealth.)
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To: zeestephen

Long read but very interesting.


55 posted on 09/22/2019 12:56:39 PM PDT by willk (A bias news media is not a free press.)
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To: Liberty Ship

Re: Well, I guess there would be no reason for them to lie about that.

Glad we can agree on something.

The plane flew for two years in North America, Europe, and in the wealthy Asian countries.

Zero crashes, zero close calls, and, as far as I know, zero incident reports about the software or the equipment that allegedly caused the fatal accidents in Indonesia and Ethiopia.

Bottom Line...

Third World pilot error or Islamic terrorism.


56 posted on 09/22/2019 4:02:28 PM PDT by zeestephen
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To: zeestephen
Bottom Line...Third World pilot error or Islamic terrorism.

IMHO, Islamic terrorism did not play a part.

In addition to Third World pilot error, I would add:

Third World aircraft maintenance

Third World pilot qualification

Third World pilot training

My bottom line...I will never fly on a Third World airline...ever!

57 posted on 09/23/2019 5:00:50 AM PDT by FtrPilot
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To: AdmSmith; AnonymousConservative; Arthur Wildfire! March; Berosus; Bockscar; cardinal4; ColdOne; ...
Note: this topic is from 09/21/2019. Thanks zeestephen.
What we had in the two downed airplanes was a textbook failure of airmanship. In broad daylight, these pilots couldn’t decipher a variant of a simple runaway trim, and they ended up flying too fast at low altitude, neglecting to throttle back and leading their passengers over an aerodynamic edge into oblivion.

58 posted on 06/28/2020 9:22:39 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (Imagine an imaginary menagerie manager imagining managing an imaginary menagerie.)
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