Posted on 09/19/2015 6:13:19 PM PDT by SoFloFreeper
No worries. By the way, I really LOVE that Bible, too.
Interesting thoughts! The analogy I always imagine is that God lives in a big house in heaven. If you don’t even acknowledge He exists then you have no business being a guest in his home and are cast in outer darkness. Beyond that I can’t even imagine any of it. I don’t think we are supposed to understand it right now. We should focus on having a relationship with Christ so He knows who we are and we end up in the big house.
The other thing I think about is this thought — everyone gets what they want. Christians get to be with God. Atheists don’t want to be with God and thus they do not spend eternity with Him. Everyone gets what they want!
Yep, all of that and plenty more besides. But, as with all humans everywhere, they will rationalize and will excuse themselves and will make it all His fault: righteous indignation is the fuel for their fire. Lovely people to share a hell with, undiluted by Christians who might bless them as they experience now, and unprotected by the Holy Spirit who protects them now. A horror in every conceivable way.
“As a Catholic I am terrified of the prospect of winding up in Hell. Mortal sin is just what it means & can be committed by the merest thought, never mind the deed.”
Life’s hard enough without having to worry about hell. There’s a book, “Return from Tomorrow”, by George Ritchie. A good read!
Correct on this one.
Funny that Ascol has writings on Sprouls website.
I know Tom and he and the other founders guys always enjoy yucking it up with the Covenant guys. Why the Founders bunch doesn’t ever shake the dust off and move on from the SBC is ridiculous.
But I disagree that we are not supposed to understand it right now, for at least two reasons:
1. We are commanded to provide reasonable answers to these issues: "Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have." (1 Peter 3:15) The issue of hell is one of the chief objections of unbelievers, as is evident even on this thread, so we have the responsibility to answer them, as best we can with the resources we have.
2. God has given us sufficient information, ability, and guidance (by the Spirit, who "will lead [us] into all truth") to formulate such answers. For example, I based my answer on several truths plainly taught in the Bible: God's constant love ("God is love," etc.), the truth of eternal separation from God, the truth of eternal torment (as taught by Jesus Himself), and punishment proportional to sin (consider Jesus' parables, etc.). I don't maintain that my answer corresponds exactly to reality, but only that it provides a reasonable explanation, which refutes the oft-made charge that eternal punishment in hell is nonsensical and does not represent the loving character that God claims for Himself in Scripture. Quite the contrary!
Jooze don’t believe in Hell, anyways.
[[The punishment must fit the crime. The misery and torment of hell point to the wickedness and seriousness of sin. Those who protest the biblical doctrine of hell as being excessive betray their inadequate comprehension of the sinfulness of sin. ]]
The following article on the site ‘christianthinktank.com deals with this very issue- “Is hell disproportionate’?
The skeptic/atheist protesting the ‘concept of hell’ and claiming it is a ‘disproportionate punishment’, claiming ‘eternity is too long compared to the crime committed” doesn’t seem to understand that someone who commits a crime- The following excerpt to the article sums up why eternal punishment IS indeed appropriate- Sin IS a very serious issue- MUCH more serious that people realize- And the fella explains why-
[[First, as I looked again at the example (serial rapist), I realized something important: there is no such thing as a finite sin/crime. Each crime/sin actually HAS eternal consequences. If someone commits a rape, the damage to the victim MIGHT end at death, but what that statement does not take into account is the eternally different stream/ripples of events which flow from that rape. For example, we KNOW that the victim will not be able to do as much good to others during their healing period, since they are not ‘back up to speed’. During their recovery time (assuming they actually recover all the way—not a foregone conclusion at all nowadays), their interaction with other people will not be as ‘value generating’ as it would have been without the rape. Everything they touch—often for the rest of their life—is different (often less ‘vibrant’ or with less vitality). The other way to say this—importantly—is that every eternal stream of consequences they generate/participate in after that event suffers. They ‘lose’ time during recovery and their post-recovery impacts are often compromised—at least slightly, and often considerably. And thus the people they interact with do not ‘get the best’, and they are compromised somewhat…And the dominos keep falling over…
Some crimes are obvious in this—if I murder someone who later would produce children and grand-children and great-grandchildren etc, my ‘finite act’ of murder clearly has ripple-down effects that continue indefinitely into the future. [Of course, emotional damage (e.g., rape), physical damage (e.g., irreparable injury), or even economic damage (e.g., vandalism, fraud) can have a similar no-progeny result.] These are eternal consequences of a single ‘finite’ act.
CS Lewis illustrated this truth in The Great Divorce when all the inhabitants of hell were allowed to travel to heaven and remain there—but there were no takers. The inhabitants of ‘hell’ (his literary version, that is) had so self-sculpted their characters by bad choices that they had no appreciation (and actually, no tolerance!) for the virtues and qualities of heaven. Their choices had become who they had become and who they would continually and eternally choose to be—every time they would be offered a chance to change/choose. ]]
http://christianthinktank.com/way2long.html
That last part about people WILLINGLY going to hell was something I brought up the other day- even ‘good people’ will WILLINGLY go to hell rather than accept God’s forgiveness because they have cultivated In their hearts such a hatred for God that they would rather burn in hell than kneel before Him- their inner rage against God is so intense that Hell will be the outlet they seek for their own release of fury- There is no such thing as a ‘good person’ who is unsaved- refusal to accept Their Creator as their God, is a very serious offense- regardless of hos ‘good’ they are on earth while alive- Much more serious than people are willing to admit (even though they KNOW deep down just how serious their refusal to accept Him really is)
This article is excellent- (and the whole site is well worth reading through for some very novel and thought provoking articles- The fella has a very unique way of dissecting common objections to the faith and rationally coming to conclusions that the objections simply are unfair objections based on ignorance of the unknowns or unconsidered of the situation-
[[They will beg and wish for one and will be unable to get one.]]
I don’t believe they will beg- I believe their anger towards God now, while alive o n earth, will be multiplied in hell to the point they will never wish to be with God- Like Hebrews said- this will be a place FILLED with hate, rage and fury- a very unpleasant place indeed! But sadly, they will go there willingly
So you read the Bible thru the eyes of the likes of Dawkins, who seems to have had an abusive father?
Perpetually angry,
And just where do you get this from? Those who wrote of knowing Him (as in the Psalms) and of Christ who manifested God in the flesh, or the accounts of His warnings and judgments after much long-suffering, upon perpetually wicked and rebellious people? Or a books like "The God delusion" by a seriously deluded man?
demands worship, demands compliance with His every whim or He'll destroy you forever.
Which "whim" is actually that which conforms to a static documents, unlike the objectively baseless moral basis for atheists. And which comprehensive obedience God only commands of those who enters covenant with Him, having found faith in Him as warranted based upon a level of evidence. In addition, all morally able souls are to basically worship the creator according to the light they have, vs. the created. And why would this be wrong if this requirement of choice of worship would be what is best for man, and testifies that one loves what is truly Good?
It is not wrong to require that one's god be the creator, if, 1. It was best for man, and revealed what kind of heart one had in so doing or not doing? If would only be wrong if God required it for His selfish gratification and ego, which is what the devil (the original liberal, and "share the wealth" victim entitlement promoter) and liberals seek.
In contrast, nowhere in Scripture is God shown having a need for anything (Acts 17:25 expressly says He does not), and actually would spare Himself grief if man did not exist. And God is always giving, giving and giving. ,
In addition, everyone worships/lives for/making something their ultimate object of spiritual affection and obedience/finds their ultimate security in something, either the Creator or the created.
But only the Creator is omnipotent and can never fail, and is perfect, thus it is right and good that one worship God over created things.
Thus those who reject God and choose false gods reveal their own iniquity. Atheists must thus find fault with God, but if they were perfect, all-wise and knowing and almighty then they could say negative things about those who rejected them, which reveals their love of the contrary. Its sin or Him.
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. (John 3:19-20)
Go made man upright, but he fell in Adam and thus perished:
Ecc_7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.
1Co_15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
I get that. But I have never understood people that believe sinful people SHOULD be tortured (not just separated from God) but tortured for eternity.
Men are evil and so, in all fairness, they can't complain what God chooses to do.
John 1:
17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
A guy saying that he should live however he wants, regardless of what the Creator has to say about it, sounds like a liberal on his way to hell.
[[And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. (John 3:19-20)]]
Funny how these men of evil turn around and blame God for everything when it’s THEIR acts that cause them to be evil- Acts which they LOVE to do because they love the darkness-
They make their choice, then blame God for not accepting them on THEIR terms? That’s like the petulant man on trial telling the judge how to judge, and getting angry at the judge when the judge does not obey the man
Yes, that much I do agree with. It is His world and His game and He can do whatever the heck he wishes.
God created man as an imperfect sinful creature. He was the designer. One mistake and that was it? God created us so we are really His mess. I don't think we are even close to understanding any of this. :-)
Well, it was one mistake with the very express penalty of death, spoken plainly to a person who literally saw God face to face. Anything man has is a gift from God, including the fact that he even gets to be alive, does anything good in this world, and lives peacefully. God is under no obligation to give them anything. The fact that God didn't immediately destroy mankind, but chose to still redeem His own people out of mankind, is mercy beyond anything we deserve.
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