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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
Men are evil and so, in all fairness, they can't complain what God chooses to do.

Yes, that much I do agree with. It is His world and His game and He can do whatever the heck he wishes.

God created man as an imperfect sinful creature. He was the designer. One mistake and that was it? God created us so we are really His mess. I don't think we are even close to understanding any of this. :-)

58 posted on 09/19/2015 9:56:51 PM PDT by plain talk
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To: plain talk
God created man as an imperfect sinful creature. He was the designer. One mistake and that was it?

Well, it was one mistake with the very express penalty of death, spoken plainly to a person who literally saw God face to face. Anything man has is a gift from God, including the fact that he even gets to be alive, does anything good in this world, and lives peacefully. God is under no obligation to give them anything. The fact that God didn't immediately destroy mankind, but chose to still redeem His own people out of mankind, is mercy beyond anything we deserve.

59 posted on 09/19/2015 10:15:25 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: plain talk

[[One mistake and that was it? God created us so we are really His mess.]]

One earthly mistake (or rather deliberate act) and you stand before an earthly judge- is it the judge’s fault you decided to break the law?


62 posted on 09/20/2015 12:11:26 AM PDT by Bob434
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To: plain talk; .45 Long Colt; TBP; Hebrews 11:6; Rennes Templar
God created man as an imperfect sinful creature. He was the designer. One mistake and that was it? God created us so we are really His mess. I don't think we are even close to understanding any of this. :-)

Wrong, as your idea of perfection would require one who cannot disobey God, and were as God Himself. A+E were perfect, without moral defect or sinful nature, and able to make choices.

And choice is meaningless unless there is that from which to choose btwn.

And if choice has meaning, then it must have consequences.

God could have,

1. made us (and angels) with no moral standard or sense or deprived us from the moral ability to respond to or choose good [morally insensible].

2. granted us free moral agency, but never have given us anything to choose between [negation of moral choices].

3. called man to make the Creator their ultimate object of spiritual affection and allegiance and source of security, which is what is right and what is best for man, versus finite created beings or things, and provided moral revelation and influences. But always have moved us to do good, and never have allowed us to choose evil (such as make believing in God and choosing good so utterly compelling — like God appearing daily and doing miracles on demand, and preventing any seeming evidence to the contrary so that no man could attempt excuses [effective negation of any freedom to choose].

4. allowed us to do evil, but immediately reversed any effects [negation of moral consequences].

5. allowed us to do bad, but restricted us to a place where it would harm no one but ourselves [restriction of moral consequences].

6. allowed us to choose between good and evil, and to affect others by it, but not ultimately reward or punish us accordingly [negation of eternal consequences, positive or negative].

7. given us the ability to choose, and alternatives to chose from, and to face and overcome evil or be overcome by it, with the ability to effect others and things by our choices, and to exercise some reward or punishment in this life for morality, and ultimately reward or punishment all accordingly [pure justice].

8. restrained evil to some degree, while making the evil that man does to work out for the good of those who want good, and who thus love God, who is good.

9. in accordance with 8, the Creator could have chose to manifest Himself in the flesh, and by Him to provide man a means of escaping the ultimate retribution of Divine justice, and instead receive unmerited eternal favor, at God’s own expense and credit, appropriated by a repentant obedient faith, in addition to the loss or gaining of certain rewards based on one’s quality of work as a child of God. And eternally punish, to varying degrees, those whose response to God’s revelation manifested they want evil, [justice maintained while mercy and grace given].

69 posted on 09/20/2015 5:45:05 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Turn to the Lord Jesus as a damned and destitute sinner+ trust Him to save you, then follow Him!)
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To: plain talk; Greetings_Puny_Humans; daniel1212
One mistake and that was it? God created us so we are really His mess. I don't think we are even close to understanding any of this.

It's not that difficult to understand. God created us. We choose to reject Him for as little as a piece of fruit. And still we continue to blame Him.

96 posted on 09/20/2015 1:30:50 PM PDT by HarleyD ("... letters are weighty, but his .. presence is weak, and his speech of no account.")
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