Posted on 03/06/2014 10:24:04 AM PST by rktman
Well for Heaven's sake, dear Brother in Christ, I certainly agree with you there!
This is not a case of "either/or," but of both — depending on which observational viewpoint one is operating from.
And, that is particularly true for those who have been taught (or worse, teach) [erroneously] that there must be ONLY one viewpoint.
But THAT viewpoint can only be the human viewpoint.
Tell me please, HOW that cannot involve "making man the measure of God?"
What is time from the human standpoint? Our standard units of time — day, year, etc. — are all human notional products derived from a very local frame of reference. I.e., a "day" is the time it takes for the Earth to complete one full rotation on its axis ( (i.e., ~24 hours); a "year" is the time it takes for the Earth to complete one full revolution around our parent star, the Sun (i.e., ~365 days).
Even if we were to say "a Day of the Lord is as 1,000 years," we are still using the human notional concept of what a "year" is.
A Timeless God is not bound by such notional, finite temporal units.
Just trying to get a conversation going on this issue.
Thank you so very much, dear brother in Christ, for your thought-provoking, if "controversial," insights! (I'm sure my statements are pretty "controversial," too.... But someone please show me where they're wrong.)
Apparently God decided to give us a bit of understanding in how HE counts time. Why else would Peter say ....
IIPeter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing,
that one day is with the LORD as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
God is 'time' and controls time.
One can look at it that way.
Then again, one could say that God, communicating with his children, knew He had to speak to them in terms that they could understand. IOW, according to the human concept of time, at the time.
"1,000" was about the biggest number that people could conceive at the time. There is a relic of this notion in the system of Roman numerals: That system's biggest integer was and is "M" — denoting "one thousand."
Here are the Roman numerals, just for a refresher:
I = 1All the Roman numbers were expressed in terms of these seven "numerals."
V = 5
X = 10
D = 50
C = 100
L = 500
M = 1,000
[Note there is no zero (0)]
In this system, the year 2014 Anno Domini would be written: MMXIV.
Just a thought, Just mythoughts!
The important thing is God is Truth. And His Truth does not depend on our detailed understanding of it for its Truth.
Thank you ever so much for your thoughtful reply!
If God is 'timeless' why would He constrain Himself to the Roman understanding? He surely knew when He had Peter pen this it would be used for all His time? More than that, this chapter is where Peter describes the three heaven/earth ages. So it is not limited to the Creator's methodology of keeping time to the Roman understanding.
Yet, if God’s Spirit is eternal, and if those Spirits gone to be with the Lord — soon to be reencapsulated in a new body — are also eternal, doesn’t that at least suggest that Spirit is also timeless? Would not those intersections of the Spirit with this realm in which our corruptible bodies reside have at least the possibility of affecting a determination of time that has passed?
I’ve been in worship where an hour seemed like a minute.
Would the sacred space where Jacob had his head on a rock and dreamed of a Stairway to Heaven be affected by that Stairway as much as was Jacob? Would it not require an altar be built there eventually? And was it set aside space, sanctified space?
As you may already know I have been working on a new paradigm, a new cosmology founded in how the big bang brought the current Universe of multi-dimensions into existence. [Nachmonides, in his 13th century comments on Genesis said that he was led to speculate there are at least ten dimensions.]In my research I have come to believe God created dimension Time first, then dimension Space, then Time inflated dragging space along into a volume of what we now call spacetime. Initial conditions were at the Planck scale/length and at that scale no electromagnetic radiation can happen.
When Time took hold of Space and inflated then God’s command of ‘Light Be’ happened in the expanding volume. THEN God spoke all matter into being, at the quark scale, and has added all the other dimensions to the volume according to His timing and plan. But that volume has variable expressions of time which are not on the planck span (as in the energy of the vacuum) and which give rise to expressions of ‘things’ very different from our familiarity.
The most fundamental expression of dimension Time is in a granular tension with the most fundamental expression of space. It is the accumulation of these grains of spacetime as matter which causes the volume to ‘drag on’ or resist matter. Inertial mass is the vacuum resisting the change of temporal ‘position’ of matter, and gravity is the accumulated drag seeking to return to initial conditions, temporally.
Each dimension has at least three variable expressions. I speculate that there is a dimension from which Life emerges to inveigle the volume of spacetime, and Time has linear, planar, and volumetric expressions. There are, I believe, beings existing in the volume who are not temporally oriented the way humankind is (humans as receivers and processors of data from already happened events; as Alamo_Girl is fond of pointing out, 'without time events do not occur and without space thins do not exist').
Plant life processes the Universe volume differently than animal life. And animal life processes data over a broader variation of limits ... our vision is very narrow wavelength-wise compared to some other animals, and bats, for another example, can sense their surroundings using sound waves. But I am convinced that there are other parallel continua in the volume of spacetime which are arranged differently, such that a being ‘there’ can receive and process data from our limits, but we are not capable of sensing data at their level of complexity. An example is found in Daniel chapter five.
This new cosmology lends a very different definition to dimension Time, such that a whole new understanding of how the Universe works in our ‘limits well’ and beyond arises. An example of a very significant phenomenon is the way photon energy (and all electromagnetic waves in general) travels the Universe; because photons have no inertial mass, they impact a receiver with just their wave energy complexity and do not register as spatial phenomena. Thus inertia and gravity are temporal based phenomena interacting with the fabric of the volume ... dimension Time dragged dimension Space along making a volume.
I’ve written all that to say this: God’s clocking is different from ours yet He uses a reference frame in the Bible determined by the rotation of our planet as we count it, because His perspective in the Bible is meant JUST for we humans and the Angels who are involved with us. It may be that we humans are the ONLY biological beings in whom God has placed the dimension of Spirit (in the sense of the biology arisen from our limits well, and not biology perhaps arisen in a different limits well ... planar temporal bodies will be very different in data processing from ours; the data processing of chemical breakdown of other living things, to acquire the constituent portions of same for energy production may not be the modus operandi of planar temporal beings, who might receive and process energy directly via absorption not chemical entropy bound). The eight day of God’s Creation may be governed by a very different set of limits, but will still be in the volume of spacetime Created by God, a volume which began as moment then added point and inflating moment into linear then planar then volume, but into which expanding volume other dimensions have been added, as God continues to Create within the marvelous thing we call ‘the Universe’.
I didn't say timeless, better to say Eternal God, "constrains" himself to Roman understandings. Far be it: God is not "in" Time, and exceeds all human understandings.
The Roman era was roughly a millennium after Abraham, and roughly seven centuries after God's revelation of Himself to Moses. I was simply trying to indicate that at the time of which we are speaking — the communication of the Holy Scriptures to the People of God — peoples' notions of TIME (stated as a numerical measure) were even more primitive than our notions of TIME still are today.
Rather my point was the very opposite. God does not "constrain" Himself to whatever the prevailing human understanding is in any era — which would be to "bring Him down" to the human level. He is trying to "bring us up" to His level, in anticipation of that "time" when we shuck our mortal bodies and join Him in the Kingdom of Heaven, by virtue of the Sacrificial Atonement of His Son, our Lord Jesus Christ alone. All we need for this is sufficient understanding that we might hear His Holy Word, Incarnate in Jesus, so to be saved. I say "sufficient" understanding, not "exhaustive" or "complete" understanding.
We do not know as God knows, and being finite mortals, cannot.
The focus should be on God speaking to His own, in terms they can understand. I believe this is an on-going process, now and always. Under the tutelage of His Holy Spirit, our knowledge of Him can grow. But it will never be complete knowledge, this side of the grave.
Your thesis, on the other hand, seems to suggest that God's TIME — which is TIMELESSNESS — can be completely, exhaustively reduced to the categories of human understanding. I do not believe this is possible. There is an insurmountable categorical difference, a difference of incalculable orders of magnitude, between our Eternal God and His finite creature, Man.
May I suggest, rather, that in the final analysis, God's Salvation does not depend on a person's taking a "final exam" of what the person knows of God, and whether or not it is "correct." Salvation does not depend on what a person knows, rather it depends on how a person lives....
And as Jesus Christ Himself tells us, the criteria of Salvation consist, simply, of two things: Loving God with one's whole heart and soul and mind and strength; and one's neighbor as oneself.
I see a lot of Christians "quarreling" over which Church is the true custodian of Christian doctrine, often in a most unneighborly way. It is my prayerful hope that that will not be the case on this thread.
For our God is a God of Love — and who lives in Love, lives in God, and God in Him — in the here and now, and in the hereafter.
I give my testimony, for whatever it's worth to you, dear Just mythoughts. May the peace and love of Christ be with you always!
Thank you for writing!
It is not my understanding nor my intent to state or imply that we in flesh can completely 'grasp' the fullness of the Creator.
However, John 1:1 In the beginning (Genesis 1:1) was the WORD, and the WORD was with God, and the Word was God.
So His WORD is how we can 'know' Him, not in a perfect understanding, but like laying a foundation upon which to build as the understanding grows.
So when I read IIPeter 3 the whole chapter it covers a vast time line. And if I am to consider John 1:1 as a truth, then Peter appears to be conveying far more than just to a Roman audience.
Peter covers in this chapter from the beginning to the end and includes how God keeps time. Up to Genesis 6 flesh lived nearly one day with the LORD. Referencing Methuselah as recorded living 969 years.
I personally do not believe in the flesh, unless the Creator has cause any person can fully understand what has been Written. So I surely do expect a wealth of understanding when I return to the Maker that sent me.
I believe that, as the Third Person of the Holy Trinity, the Holy Spirit is absolutely timeless, or more properly to say, Eternal.
But I do not see how it necessarily follows that His relations with us in Time — and I imagine since the Resurrection of Christ, He is the only Person of the Triune Godhead who has direct relations with human souls while we are still in finite, mortal bodies — is much concerned with "affecting a determination of time that has passed."
The work of the Holy Spirit is toward affecting our future (from our point of view) Salvation. It is here that I believe that the great poet, T. S. Eliot, was truly inspired; for he wrote:
Man lives at the intersection of time and timelessness.The work of the Holy Spirit — God with us (if we let Him through the door) — is to teach us how to live in faith, and hope, and love, to shine God's Light on our path ahead, that we may humbly, faithfully follow our Lord Jesus Christ. He is about the salvation of souls, not about instructing us about time that has passed, or of any other aspect of temporal human knowledge....
At least, that is my belief — for I know Him, in all humility....
I keep a clean, well-swept room in my Heart for Him, that He may abide with me according to His Will. And I cannot begin to describe to you the misery, the anguish I feel, when He is absent.... As sometimes happens. It is then that I truly feel alone, abandoned ... a stranger in a strange land.
For what it's worth, dear brother in Christ.
Thank you so much for writing!
St. John — the Beloved Apostle of Christ — was speaking to the ages....
And then he "wraps up" everything in Revelation....
I don't see Jesus conducting any tests of knowledge in those pages.... This "time" business seems to be a huge stumbling block for many....
Thank you so much for writing, dear Just mythoughts.
Christ promised that He would never leave us or forsake us.
We may not be as aware of His indwelling Presence at some times as much as others, but it's our perception, not His absence in fact.
He has sealed us with the promised Holy Spirit as a guarantee of our inheritance. He can't leave.
Ephesians 1:13-14 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
2 Corinthians 1:21-22 And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
2 Corinthians 5:4-8 For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
We walk by faith, not by sight.
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
So that even when it may feel like He's not there, our faith kicks in and we can know it as a certainty because He said it and we know He is faithful and He is not a man that He should lie.
Don't grieve that He has left, just that the intimacy and fellowship is interrupted.
2 Co 12: 1 I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know--God knows. 3 And I know that this man--whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows-- 4 was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell.
Can you comprehend that? Within the mathematics that is proven true in our created universe, that statement is simply and humanly incomprehensible.
And that -- incomprehensible -- is precisely how God intended Peter to describe Him -- and His timescale.
Thus, MHGinTN's statement,
“God’s clocking is different from ours yet He uses a reference frame in the Bible determined by the rotation of our planet as we count it, because His perspective in the Bible is meant JUST for we humans and the Angels who are involved with us.” [emphasis mine]
"does not compute", either.
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Our God and Creator is Omnipotent, Eternal, and Changeless and, yes, Incomprehensible to our finite, created minds. We simply must accept that -- and look forward to the promised future when "we shall see Him as He is..."
Any attempt on our parts to "cram God into a human or earthly box to fit our comprehension" is -- simply -- wrong.
The only time our God debased Himself to our level was when, for a specific purpose, ("to seek and to save that which was lost") He assumed human flesh, and submitted to the ultimate debasement of the Cross.
When we fully comprehend His descent from Omnipotence to execution, the true majesty of His "Amazing Grace" should totally overwhelm us with gratitude!
That is why I only feel safe describing the elapsed time of Creation (from our Creator's vantage point) as,
Attempting to apply any earthly or human measure beyond that is a risk I am not willing to take.
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As Alamo-Girl often reminds us:
Thank you for that insightful and encouraging post!
Our mutual Sister may not have needed its uplifting grace -- but I certainly did! Sometimes I feel as if "I have my fingers in my own spiritual ears".
At such times, I may not "hear" the Spirit, but, as you have kindly pointed out -- He is still there with me!
Thank you!!
God speaks to us at the level we can comprehend, even though it may take a little stretching of our minds, it is always comprehensible by some reference frame, as it 'analogizes' a much more complex over-all reality.
And, (if you can answer that one) did his language/knowledge base even contain the concept of "galaxy"?
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