Ukrainian riot police charge protesters after nation's bloodiest day, death toll rises to 18

New York Daily News ^ | 02/18/2014

[Ivan Mazepa]

People can start their own groups. They can make a website, publish papers. They can have meetings and conferences. On their own, with no support from big-money outsiders. It doesn't take a lot of money.

This is exactly what has happened in Ukraine. There's a large number of independent organizations and they haven't heard of Soros. All they can tell about a guy is his name if read backwards is the same. To discredit these organizations, all one has to do is call them Soros funded - no need to do investigations, of course they're foreign funded. Why would the stupid Ukrainians put up their own money to defend their own interests /sarc

To reiterate, Soros is nothing but a pimple compared to the efforts that Ukrainians themselves are making. Hope it doesn't come off like I'm bragging, but I too have already donated to the cause

[NFHale]

yeah, I do. These folks, however, are not taking it. They’re fighting back, with their OWN riot shields, body armor, helmets, pepper gas spray, gasoline, and flame.

And firearms too... what little they have.

Governments always show their hand in how they treat protest. Ultimately, the response goes to “comply or die”.

Sucks for them when the people get the nerve to stand up and say “Oh, really?”

[freeandfreezing]

So , if we have the police throw the stones back to the protesters, that would fair, right?

Nothing is "fair" when violence breaks out. That's why everyone involved in the turmoil in the Ukraine should seek a peaceful solution.

But I would think that overall it would be better if the police and the protesters throw rocks at each other, instead, of for instance, shooting at each other, or burning down each others homes and neighborhoods. But an even better option is a political process.

Smart governments, and police and other security forces realize that violence against significant segments of their own people rarely works out, unless tyranny is their goal. Professional police and security forces in nations where the rule of law is important seek to reduce tensions and avoid further violence.

[PieterCasparzen]

Ivan...

a country that wants to grow economically should bootstrap.

Small business experts borrow that term from the computer guys; boostrapping the computer, or booting, is "how to start an operating system when the operating system services are not there because it's not running". An OS has to "pull itself up by its own bootstraps".

Thus small business borrows the concept in terms of capital; starting with minimal equity capital, whatever funds are available to the owners. And if they have more than they need, only invest what is really needed. Avoid debt financing.

The small business "bootstrap" startup figures out ways to do what they need to in order to build their business. Not being impatient and greedy, trying to find a short cut to big revenue, but patiently doing the work of building a business. Slow and steady wins the race, Rome was not built in a day. Try to avoid losses, make a healthy profit, but not get greedy and gouge customers, since the high profits are probably a result of "bending" the law and will attract hordes of competition anyway. Best to stay competitive by keeping prices reasonable and profits healthy through efficiency. If margins are very high, don't ever get to relying on that by bloating spending, since the high margins will be temporary.

And instead of borrowing (debt) to fund growth, leaving profits in the business, so the business is financed from its own Revenue, i.e., "self-financing" - voila, bootstrapping.

This can be done anywhere in the world - and does not require the billions in outside investment that globalist financial elites say are necessary to grow and develop an economy. As small businesses grow, some owners will have some cash available for investing, which can be invested in other small businesses through both debt and equity financing. The elites' capital markets monopoly will instantly say this is "too risky" and can not be allowed - since it would be bypassing the capital markets monopoly.

IF - and that's a big IF - there is a Christian moral foundation to society, and this small business model is used, such an economy brings happy prosperity.

It's ONLY the business "knowledge" that's needed, not capital, and it should be sought from successful small business owers - not from NGOs, politicians, billionaires, activists, large corporations, etc., all of which have alterior motives and will subtely mislead.

One small business person helping another - there is often no alterior motive there at all. I have seen it many times with my own eyes, as have many people.

Ukrainians in the US should be forming the link between US small business and Ukraine. Forget about small business associations in the US or elsewhere - they are mostly corrupt - and servants of elite finance. Direct advice/mentoring/training from REAL ordinary small business owners would give a person ALL THEY NEEDED to take it from there and get started on their own. Small business people routinely provide ongoing advice and support for other small business people.

This type of help is all that's needed. Ukraine can prosper if they can steadily extricate the big-money, big-power foreign influencers from ALL sides. After they get going, owning their own businesses, not owing excessive debts, they can certainly then trade internationally - with net balanced imports and exports - and the "big" powers could all have productive, win-win trading relationships with Ukraine.

It would arguably be a first, so I offer no illusions of how distant a goal that is, it's very distant.

[freeandfreezing]

Maybe the protesters should just go home and stop committing violence.

I guess Paul Revere, George Washington, Ben Franklin, and all the rest of them should have "just gone home and stopped committing violence" too.

[Ivan Mazepa]

It seems like a really cool plan! Good luck with it! Please, don’t blame the Jews after.

Promise I won't. unless it's a Jewish goat, but then I'll be a converted believer that it's all a "Zionist" and Freemason plot to destroy mother Russia

Solutions have been proposed already (establishment of an independent judiciary, increase the power at the local level, simplify the tax code etc) but it all will pointless if no one agrees to follow the laws.

[AppyPappy]

I guess Paul Revere, George Washington, Ben Franklin, and all the rest of them should have “just gone home and stopped committing violence” too.

Don’t forget the Iraqis insurgents and the Taliban. Should they stop committing violence? How about the Occupy crowd? Should they have stopped committing violence? Black Panthers?

[freeandfreezing]

Who is doing the rioting? Are they Muslims?

No, just a broad section of the society that is trying to prevent their nation from sliding back into the grip of the Communists in Russia. Sort of like what would happen here if some president decided not to leave office at the end of his term, and was trying to amend the constitution by "executive order". There would be a lot of unhappy people protesting in the streets.

Here is a quick summary from a young Ukrainian woman: I am a Ukranian - YouTube

[freeandfreezing]

OK, I get it AppyPappy. You either can't tell the difference between the Taliban and George Washington, or you are posting in favor of the current government in the Ukraine. Or maybe you work for Putin.

If not, then I presume you support every government which attempts to crush protests by its citizens. You'd feel right at home in Cuba, Venezuela, or North Korea then. And I guess you kind of liked watching Bull Conner and his crew set the dogs upon the kids.

[PieterCasparzen]

It’s such a shame if they think that joining the European Union will be a good step.

And the independent groups - how to know how much they are influenced in their goals by outsiders.

How much has Soros/Euro/CIA advertising or PR put ideas into people’s minds ? We don’t know.

The people’s intent is right, freedom, etc., but are the specifics they are fighting for actually going to serve their real intent ?

It looks like to me that joining the EU is an idea that has been heavily marketed. No doubt, in such a manner as “hey, we’ll be rich !” Let’s drive BMW’s, go shopping in Paris, etc.

Meanwhile, from what I’ve seen, it looks like there is considerable unhappiness at the EU from populations of the nations that are in the EU !

I’ve recently learned the bitter lesson....

of realizing that I’m just a pawn that is used by the powerful elites of society.

Rather than focus on the national level and going for an immediate changeover in the national government, perhaps focusing on the local level would give much better long-run results.

[AppyPappy]

Geez, lady. Take a Mydol.
The protesters are trying to burn out the government. This isn’t a bunch of dope-smoking hippies having a love-in. This could end up being another October Revolution. Do you want the rebirth of the USSR?
You are way too desperate to see the good in just one side. If the cops stand down, what will happen? As best we can tell, the screaming mob will burn down the government buildings. If you can’t tell the difference between the Founding Fathers and a lawless mob, God help you.

[PieterCasparzen]

My hopie changie thing is that after all this violence there’s a transformation of Ukrainian minds, death of Sovok and realization that earlier ways of living cannot work any more. That’s the main requirement before the practical decisions can be made

Ahh, see, you need the plan of what is to come after, now.

If you don't have a plan...

Well, there is a plan, you just don't know what it is.

It's not enough to say we can't go on as we are. You have to have specifics on what you are going to institute. You also need to keep track of them once the "revolution" succeeds to make sure the changes happen as intended.

The whole thing is very hard to control when it sinks to violence on a large scale.

Such a situation allows a small, well-organized and trained team of operatives to "magically" appear when the dust settles and they are firmly in control. And no one really knew what was going on until it was too late.

[MaxMax]

One thing I've noticed about the police who hide their faces when they
put on the riot gear and beat and kill people, they are neighbors of those
they beat and kill. They are also those who are not from local areas and are
brought into communities where they cannot be recognized.

That is happening here also. Look at the police of the 60's in the USA compared to today.
Back then they were held accountable and were recognizable. Now they hide behind masks
known as SWAT and DHS, and other Gov entities.

[boxlunch]

Ditto that!

We have Ukrainian and American friends with offices in downtown Ukraine, very close to where the protests are. They have shared what they think the majority feelings are. While there may be some mixture of different forces of opposition,possibly some outside influence, I believe most of the protests are led by and for native Ukrainians. They just want to have their constitutional rights restored,(that the fraudulently elected President took away last fall) and an end to the corruption in their government, and to not be put back under Russia's thumb.

Not necessarily to join EU, but a portion of them may think that is their only alternative. Mostly they just want freedom. People on here seem to think the current Ukranian president is some model of democratic ideals and that the protesters are some "Occupy wall street" types, or that Soros is behind it. Actually, their president has essentially made himself a dictator and Soros is much more likely to be supporting him and backing a push to join Russia.

[boxlunch]

See post http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/3124497/posts?page=113#113

AppyPappy, do you have friends in Kiev? Do you know from personal conversation anything about what is going on?
Just curious. You seem to be very much in favor of supporting an dictatorial government. I’m not understanding why you are supporting their president when you don’t seem to know a lot about this.

It’s as if Obama finally just suspended our constitiution completely, illegally passed a bunch of tyrannical laws limiting free speech, freedom of press, freedom to congregate and protest, etc., and said he wanted to link our country with Russia (or Venezuela or Cuba or whatever). Then when patriotic freedom loving Americans decide to stand up to the illegal government, you would take the side of the President?

Also, everyone please pray for the Ukrainians: for freedom, for an honest government, for a return to their constitution, and for a peaceful resolution.

[boxlunch]

I love your ideas here on "bootstrapping" a startup small business, and totally agree with your suggestions. This is a model that all countries who wish to restore freedom and independence would do well to model. Doing it without debt is a very Biblical, and therefore wise model.

The rich rules over the poor, and the borrower is the slave of the lender.
Proverbs 22:7

[Ivan Mazepa]

Ahh, see, you need the plan of what is to come after, now. If you don't have a plan... Well, there is a plan, you just don't know what it is.

See post 106. What I was getting at is more fundamental than having a plan. There are already the initiatives planned, but what's point if it's a culture where laws are not set in stone, they're malleable. You know, communist countries were the most democratic country in the world, on paper that is. There's theory, and then there's practice.

Similarly, when Yanukovich is succeeded by somebody else, it'll be very likely that the successor will be corrupt as well. Unless the people and voters stop accepting corruption as part of their lives, it's not going to stop, they'll be stepping on the same rake over and over. Also, if only Ukraine was in a vacuum and tried to solve this problem independently, but alas, there are outside forces and Putin has a 5 year plan to restore the USSR

[Ivan Mazepa]

It’s such a shame if they think that joining the European Union will be a good step

I don't think being a member of EU is a good step. What is being discussed at this time is a trade agreement with EU, not membership. The trade agreement itself has long been supplanted as the cause of the revolt, it's something like 4th on the list of demands for the protesters.

Rather than focus on the national level and going for an immediate changeover in the national government, perhaps focusing on the local level would give much better long-run results.

Agree.

[Dead Corpse]

Equating folks fighting for freedom with those trying to impose their own brand of tyranny.

Here’s a hint, when you find yourself unable to get out of a hole... The first thing you should do is stop digging.

[Dead Corpse]

You know, you could have save d a bunch of typing and just admitted that you have no f**king clue whats going on over there.