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BATFE Taking Comments on "Sporting Purposes" Exemption to "Armor Piercing Ammunition" Law Until
nraila.org ^ | 6 December, 2012 | NRA-ILA6

Posted on 12/08/2012 7:23:14 AM PST by marktwain

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives is taking public comments on its website until December 31, with regard to how it should determine what types of projectiles meet the "sporting purposes" exception to the federal "armor piercing ammunition" law. At this time, the question centers primarily around rifle-caliber projectiles made of metals harder than lead, such as the Barnes Bullets solid brass hunting bullets.

Under the law, adopted in 1986, "armor piercing ammunition" is defined as "a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium." A second definition, added in the 1990s, includes "a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile."

Because handguns have been made in certain rifle calibers, many bullets that were designed originally for rifles also "may be used in a handgun." If such projectiles are made of the metals listed in the law, they are restricted as "armor piercing ammunition" unless they meet one of the law's exemptions. Being considered at this time is the exemption for "a projectile which the Attorney General finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes."

Last week, BATFE met separately with gun control activist groups, firearm industry groups, and groups representing hunters and other gun owners. The latter meeting included the NRA; Safari Club International; representatives of state wildlife agencies; and firearm and ammunition importers.

BATFE has expressed two opinions about the law and exemption that warrant particular scrutiny.

First, BATFE suggested that it believes that the "armor piercing ammunition" law was intended to affect all ammunition capable of penetrating soft body armor worn by law enforcement officers. NRA reminded BATFE that the law was intended to protect law enforcement officers against the potential threat posed a very narrowly-defined category of projectiles: those, such as KTW and Arcane, which by virtue of their hard metal construction were designed and intended to be used by law enforcement officers to shoot through hard objects, such as automobile glass and doors, when fired at the velocities typical of handgun-caliber ammunition fired from handguns. Neither before nor since the law's enactment, has an officer been killed due to such a bullet penetrating soft body armor.

NRA further pointed out that the legislative history of the law clearly shows that members of Congress, including the sponsor of the law in the House, Rep. Mario Biaggi (D-N.Y.), a decorated former NYPD police officer, expressly did not want the law to restrict rifle-caliber bullets that happen to also be useable in handguns chambered to use rifle cartridges.

Second, BATFE says it considers projectiles to not be exempt under the "sporting purposes" test if they "pose a threat to public safety and law enforcement." BATFE also expressed concern that since the law was adopted, various new rifle-caliber handguns have been invented. On that point, NRA made clear that the sporting purposes exemption is straightforward: it applies to all projectiles that are "primarily intended for sporting purposes"--nothing more, and nothing less. Under the law, a projectile would be exempt if it is primarily intended for sporting purposes, even if it is secondarily intended for self-defense or some other legitimate purpose. Furthermore, the law does not condition its restrictive language or its "sporting purposes" exemption on the design of a particular handgun; the law is concerned only with specific projectiles that can be used in handguns. NRA cautioned the BATFE against interpreting the law in a manner more restrictive than Congress intended.

For more information on ATF's position and information on how to submit comments by the Dec. 31 deadline, go to www.atf.gov/firearms/industry/.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Constitution/Conservatism; Front Page News; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: 2012; ammo; ban; banglist; batf; guncontrol
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This sounds like the beginning of a ban on lots of ammunition. I do not think the ATF will pay attention to comments, but we should get on record opposing any additions to the list of banned "armor piercing ammunition".
1 posted on 12/08/2012 7:23:25 AM PST by marktwain
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To: marktwain

This is primarily in opposition to FN-57 ammunition for FN pistols, I think. The same handgun and ammuntion used at Ft. Hood TERROR ATTACK.


2 posted on 12/08/2012 7:25:55 AM PST by Gaffer
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To: marktwain

I for one, want an armor piercing 30’06 round for those bucks that have armored up with vests.....ha ha....


3 posted on 12/08/2012 7:27:34 AM PST by Gaffer
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To: marktwain

Sounds like they are working themselves around to Kennedy’s “performance standard” for defining “armor piercing” rather than by actual design.

Basically, if a round can defeat Level IIa soft body armor, it’ll illegal.

That is every round out there faster than 1700 fps. We’d be relegated to 80% of our pistol calibers and no Rifle calibers over .22 lr.


4 posted on 12/08/2012 7:27:54 AM PST by Dead Corpse (I will not comply.)
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To: marktwain

They are reading the Tea Leaves too. Bad times are a-coming and they want to skew the odds in their favor.


5 posted on 12/08/2012 7:28:32 AM PST by The Working Man
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To: Gaffer

You sure you’re in the right place??


6 posted on 12/08/2012 7:29:51 AM PST by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: marktwain

Ban “armor piercing” because its not needed for hunting and then ban lead ammunition because its bad for the environment.


7 posted on 12/08/2012 7:31:29 AM PST by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: Gaffer

No. This is primarily about getting more of the camel under the edge of the tent....


8 posted on 12/08/2012 7:32:29 AM PST by Dead Corpse (I will not comply.)
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To: marktwain
With lead outlawed in calif and other places for bullets

The ammo makers have come up with solid metal bullets for hunting

This is a direct shot at them in areas no lead allowed it would stop hunting.

9 posted on 12/08/2012 7:34:04 AM PST by mouser (Run the rats out its the only chance we have)
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To: driftdiver

As much as you are.


10 posted on 12/08/2012 7:34:44 AM PST by Gaffer
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To: marktwain

I could see this affecting the SS109 5.56(.223) rifle bullets that have Steel Cores(green tipped), which are very popular with folks that have AR15s.

This is getting entertaining. The environuts don’t want us using Lead rounds/shot, and the ATF seems to have a problem with ammo that’s harder than Lead. What’s one to do? I could imagine Gold and Silver bullets being a tad expensive.

Keep a close eye on this folks.


11 posted on 12/08/2012 7:36:33 AM PST by KoRn (Department of Homeland Security, Certified - "Right Wing Extremist")
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To: mouser

The BATFE already went after Barnes for their banded-solids bullet.

http://www.barnesbullets.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Barnes-Customer-Update-Banded-Solids-2012.pdf

Why? Armor piercing. Not by design, but by performance.


12 posted on 12/08/2012 7:37:24 AM PST by Dead Corpse (I will not comply.)
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To: Dead Corpse
Not long ago a fellow Freeper gave me this quote from Atlas Shrugged. It is a haunting piece.

"Did you really think we want those laws observed?" said Dr. Ferris. "We want them to be broken. You'd better get it straight that it's not a bunch of boy scouts you're up against... We're after power and we mean it... There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens? What's there in that for anyone? But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced or objectively interpreted – and you create a nation of law-breakers – and then you cash in on guilt. Now that's the system, Mr. Reardon, that's the game, and once you understand it, you'll be much easier to deal with."

13 posted on 12/08/2012 7:47:08 AM PST by Dutch Boy
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To: Dutch Boy

Yep. I’ve posted that quote a few times myself.


14 posted on 12/08/2012 7:50:30 AM PST by Dead Corpse (I will not comply.)
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To: marktwain

Good article here:

WSJ: The Fallicy of “Low” or “Declining” Homicide Numbers

The Wall Street Journal

U.S. NEWS
Updated December 8, 2012, 12:12 a.m. ET

In Medical Triumph, Homicides Fall Despite Soaring Gun Violence
By GARY FIELDS and CAMERON MCWHIRTER

BALTIMORE—The number of U.S. homicides has been falling for two decades, but America has become no less violent.

Crime experts who attribute the drop in killings to better policing or an aging population fail to square the image of a more tranquil nation with this statistic: The reported number of people treated for gunshot attacks from 2001 to 2011 has grown by nearly half.

“Did everybody become a lousy shot all of a sudden? No,” said Jim Pasco, executive director of the National Fraternal Order of Police, a union that represents about 330,000 officers. “The potential for a victim to survive a wound is greater than it was 15 years ago.”

In other words, more people in the U.S. are getting shot, but doctors have gotten better at patching them up. Improved medical care doesn’t account for the entire decline in homicides but experts say it is a major factor.

Emergency-room physicians who treat victims of gunshot and knife attacks say more people survive because of the spread of hospital trauma centers—which specialize in treating severe injuries—the increased use of helicopters to ferry patients, better training of first-responders and lessons gleaned from the battlefields of Iraq and Afghanistan.

“Our experience is we are saving many more people we didn’t save even 10 years ago,” said C. William Schwab, director of the Firearm and Injury Center at the University of Pennsylvania and the professor of surgery at the Hospital of the University of Pennsylvania...

Read at:

http://theerant.yuku.com/topic/55105/WSJ-The-Fallicy-of-Low-or-Declining-Homicide-Numbers#.UMNguazWbgw


15 posted on 12/08/2012 7:58:25 AM PST by KeyLargo
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To: Dead Corpse

Glad I picked a bunch of those up already.


16 posted on 12/08/2012 8:02:57 AM PST by Lurker (Violence is rarely the answer. But when it is it is the only answer.)
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To: Gaffer

How does this square with the push for “lead free’ ammunition?
Nothing harder that lead + no lead = NO AMMUNITION!

(Unless you make it yerself, that is.)


17 posted on 12/08/2012 8:18:16 AM PST by Flintlock (PARANOIA--means having all the facts.)
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To: Gaffer
There are no rounds suitable for hunting deer that will not defeat the vests, and it's not possible to make them.

An arrow from a hunting bow or crossbow will slice through both sides of a Kevlar vest with ease, BTW.

18 posted on 12/08/2012 8:19:36 AM PST by SWAMPSNIPER (The Second Amendment,a Matter of Fact,Not a Matter of Opinion)
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To: Gaffer

Yes they have had a thing for FN 57 for a long while now.

More unsettling is that they are looking for an excuse to classify AR’s and AK’s as Class three’s so you have to pay the extra $200 and register the weapon. You would have to keep it locked up in a safe, notify BATFE if you move it to another location and be prepared for unannounced visits from agents at any time.

IMO they know what is coming and are trying to do anything possible to mitigate it.


19 posted on 12/08/2012 8:22:26 AM PST by Georgia Girl 2 (The only purpose of a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should never have dropped.)
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To: driftdiver

The article touches on three main points: 1)rifle caliber ammo for handguns, 2) BATFEs assertion that a ban on ammo that can breach soft armored LEOs, and 3) the old “public threat or LEO danger” canard arguing against allowing this ammo for it’s absurd “sporting purposes” legitimization for anything weapons.

Rifle Caliber for handguns: I own quite a lot of weapons, actually; the only rifle/handgun compatible are 45 ACP, 45 Colt, and 9MM. And there is the Governor variety with 45ACP, 45 Colt and .410 shotgun shell variety. None of these contain what I’d call “hard construction” - armor piercing - the most exotic these get are of the frangible/dispersive variety. I own quite a few rifles, too. 30’06, 30 Carbine, 7.62 X 39/54, 223/5.56, 9mm, 8 mm, 7.65 mm, and so on. There are ammo versions that are AP for most of them (except the 9mm).

There is, however, the FN 5.7 handgun ammo for that caliber which is what I’d call armor piercing. The same the Muslim Terrorist used at Ft. Hood.

The handgun/rifle crap is just that - crap. Just like that patently specious attitude that weapons have to be for “sporting purposes”.....

In my opinion, the first victim on the list is Fabrique Nationale pistols with their 5.7 ammo, and that will be followed up with a ban on all “non-sporting” ammunition which will include tracers, armored, dissipative (DRT ammo), hollow points, etc.


20 posted on 12/08/2012 8:26:56 AM PST by Gaffer
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To: KoRn

As this becomes known among the folks who have or inend to have guns imagine the salse of ammo will increase sharply. Essentially the government is going to try to get around the Court’s 2AMD rulings by banning ammo.


21 posted on 12/08/2012 8:28:30 AM PST by arthurus (Read Hazlitt's Economics In One Lesson ONLINE www.fee.org/library/books/economics-in-one-lesson)
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To: KoRn

As this becomes known among the folks who have or intend to have guns imagine the salse of ammo will increase sharply. Essentially the government is going to try to get around the Court’s 2AMD rulings by banning ammo.


22 posted on 12/08/2012 8:28:52 AM PST by arthurus (Read Hazlitt's Economics In One Lesson ONLINE www.fee.org/library/books/economics-in-one-lesson)
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To: SWAMPSNIPER

You’re talking about “soft armor” of course.....I’m talking about those bucks that are lugging around those carriers with hard plates in them!.....haha


23 posted on 12/08/2012 8:31:02 AM PST by Gaffer
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To: Flintlock

Eventually, it will affect availability I guess. Remington already makes is brass plated Green Friendly ammo (Golden?)which works pretty BTW....

I took a shot through 2 inches of pine board and lodged one of them 1/2” deep into a freshly green treaded 2X4...it surprised me how far it penetrated.


24 posted on 12/08/2012 8:34:28 AM PST by Gaffer
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To: The Working Man

I suspect we are working up to a gun grab and the feds are not sure whether the population will passively give up their weaponry to the government or whether some of them will fight. They are trying to skew the odds against those who would fight.


25 posted on 12/08/2012 8:36:52 AM PST by arthurus (Read Hazlitt's Economics In One Lesson ONLINE www.fee.org/library/books/economics-in-one-lesson)
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To: SWAMPSNIPER

***An arrow from a hunting bow or crossbow will slice through both sides of a Kevlar vest with ease, BTW. ****

Years ago, a policeman or salesman demonstrating armor was killed while wearing a bulletproof vest. He had someone in his audience attack him with a knife. It went through the bullet proof armor with no problem.

I believe that happened in Oklahoma City.


26 posted on 12/08/2012 8:49:55 AM PST by Ruy Dias de Bivar (The parasites now outnumber the producers.)
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To: Dead Corpse

thanks for info


27 posted on 12/08/2012 8:50:28 AM PST by mouser (Run the rats out its the only chance we have)
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To: Gaffer

“Eventually, it will affect availability I guess. Remington already makes is brass plated Green Friendly ammo (Golden?)which works pretty BTW....

I took a shot through 2 inches of pine board and lodged one of them 1/2” deep into a freshly green treaded 2X4...it surprised me how far it penetrated.”

A hard cast, heat-treated lead bullet will amaze you as far as penetration.


28 posted on 12/08/2012 8:54:32 AM PST by headstamp 2 (What would Scooby do?)
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To: KeyLargo; All

WSJ: The Fallicy of “Low” or “Declining” Homicide Numbers

“No studies have quantified the relationship between emergency medicine and the recent decline in homicides. But many on the front lines of crime fighting believe they are linked.”

Sounds like more anti-gun propaganda to me. No real numbers, just speculation that there is a lot of “gun violence” in spite of the falling homicide numbers. I do not know why I should believe doctors from big cities on this issue when those who are the self proclaimed voice of the medical profession have lied to advance “gun control” so much in the past.


29 posted on 12/08/2012 8:57:43 AM PST by marktwain
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To: Gaffer; All

They already banned 7.62 X 39 steel core ammo because someone made a legal pistol for sale in AK type configuration. That happened during the Clinton regime.

Nearly all rifle calibers have had pistols made that chamber them. Check out the Contender series for example.

These people are going after what they can grab, IMHO. Logic and reason have nothing to do with it.


30 posted on 12/08/2012 9:04:55 AM PST by marktwain
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To: marktwain

These are mostly stockless, short barreled, pistol gripped versions of the rifles. Not something I’d call a real ‘pistol’. Try shooting a 45LC Ranch Hand actually using the sights..... I’m talking about real rifles and pistols using the same ammunition.


31 posted on 12/08/2012 9:15:50 AM PST by Gaffer
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To: marktwain

BTW, I’m still waiting for the weirdo who’s gonna come up the the Garand Pistol...short barrel, cut-off stock and pistol grip added, short op-rod, retimed gas cylinder and action.....[actually, I’d really like to have one of them to go with the other real 4 that I’ve built up]


32 posted on 12/08/2012 9:21:02 AM PST by Gaffer
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To: marktwain

This would be our Dear Leader “working under the radar”.


33 posted on 12/08/2012 9:25:13 AM PST by SIDENET ("If that's your best, your best won't do." -Dee Snider)
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To: Gaffer

Incorrect. The ammo used by the ft hood shooter was standard ammo and in no way armor piercing. A common misconception about the 5.7 is that all ammo it shoots is armor piercing. In reality, there is one round that is actually capable of penetrating armor and it is and always has been restricted from civilian purchase.

It is possible to buy commercial rounds that are lead free but they are not capable of penetrating armor UNLESS you pull the bullets and reload them much hotter than factory.


34 posted on 12/08/2012 9:36:34 AM PST by 1malumprohibitum
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To: Gaffer

Judging from your comments you are confused.

Its not about a specific gun or type of ammo and it has nothing to do with Ft Hood.

Its part of an agenda to ban firearms and ammunition. They can’t gain ground with an outright ban so they seek to do it one piece at a time.

By agreeing and ‘compromising’ with them you help them in their efforts to eliminate private ownership of firearms.


35 posted on 12/08/2012 9:49:09 AM PST by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: Gaffer
You may not realize that what you see as humor is exactly the same as the crappy comments the anti 2nd amendment crowd likes to throw around.

I don't believe you will find many Freepers who think of RKBA as a joking matter.

36 posted on 12/08/2012 9:59:14 AM PST by SWAMPSNIPER (The Second Amendment,a Matter of Fact,Not a Matter of Opinion)
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To: Gaffer; All
These are mostly stockless, short barreled, pistol gripped versions of the rifles. Not something I’d call a real ‘pistol’.

You should be making policy at the BATFE! Then we could reimport some of that cheap (but excellent) Chinese ammo!/S

37 posted on 12/08/2012 10:08:41 AM PST by marktwain
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To: Dead Corpse

I see Barnes Bullets’s decision of withdrawing the Banded Solids ammo from the market was a defensive move while letting BATF to comply with pending “exemption request.”

I wonder if Barnes has the gumption to sue the government for arbitrary judgment or for over stepping their regulatory bounds if they refuse “to grant” the exemption?


38 posted on 12/08/2012 10:22:26 AM PST by Red Steel
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To: SWAMPSNIPER

You need to lighten up


39 posted on 12/08/2012 10:25:33 AM PST by Gaffer
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To: Georgia Girl 2
More unsettling is that they are looking for an excuse to classify AR’s and AK’s as Class three’s so you have to pay the extra $200 and register the weapon.

Their Fast & Furious scandal puts a big damper on their plans here.

40 posted on 12/08/2012 10:25:49 AM PST by Red Steel
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar

I suppose he didn’t make his sales quota that month.


41 posted on 12/08/2012 10:26:27 AM PST by BipolarBob (Riding my stick horse grinning like an idiot.)
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To: driftdiver

Back to spitballs and corks; I can see it coming.


42 posted on 12/08/2012 10:39:11 AM PST by carriage_hill (Don't whiz on the electric fence. Awwwww-yeah!)
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To: marktwain

Good grief, make a bullet out of a non lead metal to satisfy the greenies in Califpornia and the unintended result is it lets the darn BAFTE use it as a way to ban all handgun rounds other than the .22. The socialist leftists want your guns and are coming for them.


43 posted on 12/08/2012 10:43:13 AM PST by RicocheT (Eat the rich only if you're certain it's your last meal)
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To: RicocheT

I say!use titanium.that bullet will penetrate anything..Even steel armor plate.


44 posted on 12/08/2012 12:05:16 PM PST by puppypusher (The World is going to the dogs.)
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To: driftdiver
By agreeing and ‘compromising’ with them you help them in their efforts to eliminate private ownership of firearms

Please show me in my post where I used the word "agree" or anything like "compromise".

I merely discussed the three themes I took from the article.

Its not about a specific gun or type of ammo and it has nothing to do with Ft Hood. No, not specifically about Ft. Hood, but the article did make this delineation: Because handguns have been made in certain rifle calibers, many bullets that were designed originally for rifles also "may be used in a handgun." and it later specifically discussed "armor piercing" ammo.

I discussed this point in my post based on actual weapons I own and other types that I am familiar with. My example of Ft. Hood was in relation to FNs weapons and ammo which are available (even though another poster here claims there was no AP in the pistol).

I read the article, carefully. Probably more carefully than you read my response, based on your confused use of calling me 'confused' and claiming things you know nothing about whether I agree or disagree or not (I do not) - to the contrary, I called their ubiquitous "LEO and general public safety" claim a canard, and their "sporting-use" criteria absurd. How is this compromising or agreeing with them?

45 posted on 12/09/2012 4:10:37 AM PST by Gaffer
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To: Gaffer

You joke about what they are doing. Your posts give the impression you support banning the ammo they discuss for the reasons they provide.

nuff said

I don’t find humor in the lefts attempts to ban firearms.


46 posted on 12/09/2012 4:21:02 AM PST by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: driftdiver

You get ‘impressions’ now.....can’t show actual words, now it’s impressions.

nuff said.


47 posted on 12/09/2012 4:36:15 AM PST by Gaffer
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To: driftdiver
...ban lead ammunition because its bad for the environment.<<

When Obozo begins the process of disassembling the 2nd amendment, they will come from all angles.

HHS regulations under Obozocare that would make lead a health hazard, guns as a human health hazard.

Through the EPA, the U.N., executive orders/cost prohibitive fees and taxes and through legislation in congress.

48 posted on 12/09/2012 5:20:32 AM PST by servantboy777
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To: marktwain

All military surplus FMJ rifle ammunition punches holes through mettle plate..


49 posted on 12/09/2012 5:21:21 AM PST by Track9 (The MSM needs a laugh track)
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To: Track9

metal... ops


50 posted on 12/09/2012 5:22:52 AM PST by Track9 (The MSM needs a laugh track)
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