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New York fast food workers strike over low wages [want $15/hr]
guardian.co.uk ^ | Thursday 29 November 2012 19.32 EST | Gizelle Lugo

Posted on 12/01/2012 7:15:07 PM PST by DeaconBenjamin

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To: snarkybob
I don’t know how anybody makes it anywhere on $8.50 an hour, and certainly not in NYC.

Some jobs just aren't good paying enough for a person to comfortably support themselves with. Some jobs pay well enough to comfortably care for a family and home. That's simply the economics of any market.

You said that you used to pay some of your help $11 an hour. I don't care where you live in the US, that's not enough to feed, clothe, and house a family. Even a single person would have a very tough time making ends meet on that salary.

Now, did you owe it to those employees to pay them more than what their labor was worth in your market, just so they could be a bit more comfortable? No, you didn't, and because of the fair market rates for your company's products, I doubt there was anything left in your budget to pay them more.

You might as well tell your customers that they're paying you unfairly for your products, and demand a higher fee. You and I know that they'd look at you cross-eyed and give the job to a contractor who charges fair market value for his goods.

In your opinion would it be wiser for MickyDs to raise the pay or to have them unionize. And if they unionize will the MickyDs stay open?

Brother, this isn't rocket science. You were a business owner. What would have happened to you, if your employees had unionized, and forced you to pay them more? You probably would have gone broke and closed shop, because your customers certainly wouldn't have given you a dime more than what your products were worth.

Unions today do nothing but distort markets, destroy businesses, and jobs. Sometime I'll tell you how the Teamster's Union destroyed one of the best jobs I ever had. All because they wanted more pay for less work. There's only so much of that a company can take before they're bankrupted.

101 posted on 12/02/2012 12:20:21 AM PST by Windflier (To anger a conservative, tell him a lie. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth.)
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To: Windflier

“Brother, this isn’t rocket science. You were a business owner. What would have happened to you, if your employees had unionized, and forced you to pay them more? You probably would have gone broke and closed shop, because your customers certainly wouldn’t have given you a dime more than what your products were worth.”

That’s a fact. But my products weren’t the same as MickyDs.
They have a national reputation and an already built in supply of customers.
I have no real idea of what the numbers are for a burger stand like that.
I will say that given the volume they do they may be forced to increase prices per unit. That may be the price they pay for staying open.

I didn’t do enough volume to be able to do that.


102 posted on 12/02/2012 12:35:49 AM PST by snarkybob (')
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To: calex59

“However, if they did Unionize and demanded higher wages I would bet McDs in NYC would shut down, if they can’t afford to raise the pay to 15 an hour now, what makes you think they could afford it if the workers unionized?”

I don’t know that they can’t afford to pay $15 an hour..My guess is you don’t either. That’s the point of the question. If the workers unionize and MickyDs stays open. Then the whole “It’ll bankrupt us” argument was BS.

You think the MickyDs will close tho.
Wow not a single MickyDs in NYC.
You should certainly be familiar with stupid, given that you look it right in the face everytime you look in the mirror.


103 posted on 12/02/2012 12:43:01 AM PST by snarkybob (')
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To: GeronL

Highest margin at McDonald’s is carbonated soft drinks, lowest is milkshakes. Everything else is in between.


104 posted on 12/02/2012 1:19:03 AM PST by VideoPaul
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To: Windflier

It was very interesting


105 posted on 12/02/2012 1:25:46 AM PST by GeronL (http://asspos.blogspot.com)
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To: VideoPaul
Highest margin at McDonald’s is carbonated soft drinks

Especially when it's 99% ice.

106 posted on 12/02/2012 1:29:07 AM PST by GeronL (http://asspos.blogspot.com)
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To: DeaconBenjamin
"We want this, and we want that!" O.K., fine; but the question is: are you worth it?
107 posted on 12/02/2012 1:40:24 AM PST by windsorknot
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To: DeaconBenjamin

jobs are worth what people are willing to work for.

i don’t begrudge people trying to get raises,based on their performance and such, but honstlyi have no idea how one can live in nyc for under 30,000 when rent is incredibly expensive.


108 posted on 12/02/2012 1:57:19 AM PST by Secret Agent Man (I can neither confirm or deny that; even if I could, I couldn't - it's classified.)
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To: Windflier

So true. I’m 53, and I only know a few American born, English speaking guys younger than me in the trades. I’ve got another decade or so til retirement. For now I’m content to take jobs I can do by myself. I don’t have to deal with workmans comp, payroll taxes, and guys who are drunks, lazy, or don’t have transportation.


109 posted on 12/02/2012 5:51:54 AM PST by Freestate316 (Know what you believe and why you believe it.)
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To: DeaconBenjamin

Wonder bread two.


110 posted on 12/02/2012 7:02:29 AM PST by Vaduz
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To: snarkybob
But my products weren’t the same as MickyDs. They have a national reputation and an already built in supply of customers.

A guy named Roy Kroc started McDonalds. When he opened his first store, he worked the cash register himself. He was a small entrepreneur, just like you were, with no reputation of any kind.

Doesn't matter that he was selling a different product than yours. He was faced with the same arithmetic as any small business owner. He paid his employees what the market would bear. He charged prices for his products that the market would bear.

It's all about the market, and what sort of margins one can earn. You can't pay a person more than what those fundamental forces dictate, or you go broke. Doesn't matter if you're a one man band with a helper, or a multi-national corporation. The numbers are the numbers and they work the same for every business.

111 posted on 12/02/2012 9:43:50 AM PST by Windflier (To anger a conservative, tell him a lie. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth.)
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To: snarkybob
Fact check; Ray Krok didn't start McDonalds, the McDonald brothers did:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_and_Maurice_McDonald

112 posted on 12/02/2012 9:53:47 AM PST by Windflier (To anger a conservative, tell him a lie. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth.)
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To: Freestate316
I’m 53, and I only know a few American born, English speaking guys younger than me in the trades.

It's utterly amazing to me, how fast American born men just let that entire industry be taken from them. When I was a young apprentice, the only hispanic guys on the job were American born, just like the rest of us. Thirty years later, we're becoming as rare as hen's teeth.

113 posted on 12/02/2012 10:02:33 AM PST by Windflier (To anger a conservative, tell him a lie. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth.)
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To: DeaconBenjamin
When the majority of jobs left are cubic jobs, call center, and service jobs etc, you can bet the rent they are going to want more money, as the price of everything climbs up and up as their wages remain stagnant with benefits made worthless or eliminated.

Can't imagine working for 9 bucks an hour, and having to spend 75+ dollars a week for basic things like filling your gas tank to simply get to work and back while paying double for food, etc, etc.

Its a vicious circle...

Wages remain stagnant while the cost of nearly everything goes up...

114 posted on 12/02/2012 10:09:11 AM PST by dragnet2 (Diversion and evasion are tools of deceit)
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To: JCBreckenridge; snarkybob
I make 11k a year and I live just fine.

Really?

Like the majority of people, you pay rent, mortgage, pay utilities, taxes, insurance, repairs, clothing, gasoline food and double the cost, Internet services, medical, dentist, clothing etc. etc., on 11k a year?

LOL!

You *clearly* don't live in the real world...

115 posted on 12/02/2012 10:14:49 AM PST by dragnet2 (Diversion and evasion are tools of deceit)
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To: dragnet2

Don’t have a mortgage.

Rent 500/month, utilities included.
Car Insurance 25/month.
Internet 25/month.
Car Repairs 25/month, works out to be 1k over 4 years or so. Have a Honda civic.
Clothing - have plenty. Too much actually.
Gas - about 25/month. Live close to work + church and don’t make unnecessary trips.
Food - 100/month, easy. This month’s receipts were 75 bucks total for more food than I’ll eat in a month.

Total 500+ 100 for food + 100 for incidentals = 700/month x 12 -> 8400/year. Add tithing and there you go. :)


116 posted on 12/02/2012 10:23:23 AM PST by JCBreckenridge (They may take our lives... but they'll never take our FREEDOM!)
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To: dragnet2

I also don’t live in NYC. :) I live where the cost of living is much, much cheaper. “If you can’t make it here - please make it somewhere else.”


117 posted on 12/02/2012 10:24:50 AM PST by JCBreckenridge (They may take our lives... but they'll never take our FREEDOM!)
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To: JCBreckenridge

Good grief!


118 posted on 12/02/2012 10:28:57 AM PST by dragnet2 (Diversion and evasion are tools of deceit)
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To: JCBreckenridge
I was right, you certainly don't live in the real world like the majority of people do.

You make 11k per year and have money left over?

BEWAHAHAHAHAHAH

119 posted on 12/02/2012 10:31:25 AM PST by dragnet2 (Diversion and evasion are tools of deceit)
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To: dragnet2

You’re in CA? Here’s a nickel -> get yourself a better state. :)


120 posted on 12/02/2012 10:32:08 AM PST by JCBreckenridge (They may take our lives... but they'll never take our FREEDOM!)
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To: DeaconBenjamin

Inflation is hurting everyone.


121 posted on 12/02/2012 10:33:18 AM PST by GlockThe Vote (The Obama Adminstration: 2nd wave of attacks on America after 9/11)
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To: JCBreckenridge

What state are you in?

Fantasyland?


122 posted on 12/02/2012 10:34:19 AM PST by dragnet2 (Diversion and evasion are tools of deceit)
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To: dragnet2

“You make 11k per year and have money left over?”

Sure do! I just got Christmas presents for the special people in my life!


123 posted on 12/02/2012 10:35:09 AM PST by JCBreckenridge (They may take our lives... but they'll never take our FREEDOM!)
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To: JCBreckenridge
Most people in the real world pay more in taxes than your wage of 11k per year.

You could not be considered the norm by any stretch of the imagination. You coming in here bloating how you easily live on 11k a year is a joke.

I give it a 4 on the honking hoot scale.

124 posted on 12/02/2012 10:40:31 AM PST by dragnet2 (Diversion and evasion are tools of deceit)
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To: Windflier

“A guy named Roy Kroc started McDonalds. When he opened his first store, he worked the cash register himself. He was a small entrepreneur, just like you were, with no reputation of any kind.”

We weren’t talking about Ray Kroc. Who didn’t actually start McDonalds. That was the Mcdonalds brothers in San Beradino.

Ray Krok became their franchiser and later bought them out. He already had a reputation in the food industry as the owner of a company that sold milk shake mixers. He was also a salesman for food service supplys. Napkins and cups and such.

It’s certainly not the same chain it was then. Now it’s fully established with Billions and Billions served.

You run your own business. I believe you mentioned being in the Dallas area. I have no idea what regulations your business are forced to operate under.
I do have some idea what building trade wages are going to cost you. Although I am a few years out of date.

Should you determine there are opportunities worth pursuing in NYC.and decide to open a business there.
Everything will cost more, except in this case labor.
Wages have largely stagnated for at least the last 15 years.
If prices have to be raised to pay the employees, well that’s the cost of being a business owner.

The business has a couple of choices. They can raise wages or they risk having the workers unionize.
And I’d still bet that even should the workers unionize, MickyDs stays open. When the price of fuel spikes, prices across the board go up. Consumers piss and moan and maybe a few even cut back, but mostly they piss and moan and keep to their routine.
Business doesn’t offer gasoline sellers 40 cents on the dollar for their fuel with the argument that they can take that or put me out of business and not sell any gas at all.

I wonder what kind of volume a busy MickyDs in NYC does in a shift.


125 posted on 12/02/2012 10:42:23 AM PST by snarkybob (')
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To: dragnet2

“What state are you in? Fantasyland?”

The greatest state in the nation. :)


126 posted on 12/02/2012 10:43:31 AM PST by JCBreckenridge (They may take our lives... but they'll never take our FREEDOM!)
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To: snarkybob; Windflier

Boom Like That - Mark Knopfler

I’m going to San Bernardino ring-a-ding-ding
Milkshake mixers that’s my thing, now
These guys bought a heap of my stuff
And I gotta see a good thing sure enough, now
Or my name’s not Kroc that’s Kroc with a ‘K’
Like ‘crocodile’ but not spelled that way, yeah
It’s dog eat dog rat eat rat
Kroc-style boom, like that

The folks line up all down the street
And I’m seeing this girl devour her meat, now
And then I get it, wham as clear as day
My pulse begins to hammer and I hear a voice say

These boys have got this down
Oughtta be a one of these in every town
These boys have got the touch
It’s clean as a whistle and it don’t cost much
Wham, bam you don’t wait long
Shake, fries patty, you’re gone
And how about that friendly name?
Heck, every little thing oughtta stay the same
Or my name’s not Kroc that’s Kroc with a ‘K’
Like ‘crocodile’ but not spelled that way, now
It’s dog eat dog rat eat rat
Kroc-style boom, like that

You gentlemen ought to expand
You’re going to need a helping hand, now
So, gentlemen well, what about me?
We’ll make a little business history, now
Or my name’s not Kroc call me Ray
Like ‘crocodile’ but not spelled that way, now
It’s dog eat dog rat eat rat
Kroc-style boom, like that

Well we build it up and I buy ‘em out
But, man they made me grind it out, now
They open up a new place flipping meat
So I do, too right across the street

I got the name I need the town
They sell up in the end and it all shuts down
Sometimes you gotta be an s.o.b.
You want to make a dream reality
Competition? send ‘em south
If they’re gonna drown
Put a hose in their mouth
Do not pass ‘go’ go straight to hell
I smell that meat hook smell

Or my name’s not kroc that’s Kroc with a ‘K’
Like ‘crocodile’ but not spelled that way, now
It’s dog eat dog rat eat rat
Kroc-style boom, like that


127 posted on 12/02/2012 10:46:20 AM PST by dfwgator
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To: dragnet2

You’re from California. You folks know nothing about flyover country. You have the haughty, “this is reality” down just pat.

As Mr. Reagan once said - “you know so much that isn’t so”.

Yes, I live on about that every year. And yes, I live quite confortably on it. :)


128 posted on 12/02/2012 10:49:11 AM PST by JCBreckenridge (They may take our lives... but they'll never take our FREEDOM!)
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To: dragnet2

Where else would be the greatest state of the nation.


129 posted on 12/02/2012 10:52:45 AM PST by JCBreckenridge (Texas is a state of mind. - John Steinbeck :))
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To: dfwgator

I’ve read a bit about Ray Kroc.
This pretty much follows all the things I’ve read.


130 posted on 12/02/2012 10:55:46 AM PST by snarkybob (')
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To: Windflier

Thanks Winflier, you’re so right. I had a lapse there didn’t I. Chalk up one more person who has a massive loss, if this union thing catches on.


131 posted on 12/02/2012 10:58:27 AM PST by DoughtyOne (Hurricane Sandy..., a week later and over 60 million Americans still didn't have power.)
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To: GeronL

Thanks GeronL.


132 posted on 12/02/2012 11:02:19 AM PST by DoughtyOne (Hurricane Sandy..., a week later and over 60 million Americans still didn't have power.)
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To: JCBreckenridge

“Yes, I live on about that every year. And yes, I live quite confortably on it. :)”

Not trying to be contrary here, but what would happen if say 100,000 people left NYC or Caili and moved to your town because it’s cheaper to live.


133 posted on 12/02/2012 11:09:36 AM PST by snarkybob (')
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To: snarkybob

That’s my exact point. Thank you. TX is not CA or NYC. If the people of NYC want to pay their McDonalds workers 20/hr, fine by them.

The problem is when they try to jack up the minimum wage laws to screw everyone else over.

If they came here? They’d either:

1, get bored and leave, or:
2, get a gun, go to church and love it here. :)

I left a socialist hellhole myself to come down to Texas, and I couldn’t be happier.


134 posted on 12/02/2012 11:14:04 AM PST by JCBreckenridge (Texas is a state of mind. - John Steinbeck :))
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To: snarkybob
If prices have to be raised to pay the employees, well that’s the cost of being a business owner. The business has a couple of choices. They can raise wages or they risk having the workers unionize.

In what kind of bizarro world is that true? Soviet Russia?

Bob, I've tried my best to give you the benefit of the doubt here, but the more you talk, the more I'm convinced that you honestly don't grasp the fundamental economics at work here. That's curiously out of step for someone who claims to have run a business for five years.

Perhaps you started your business with a built-in customer base, and never had to duke it out with the local competition. I've seen guys whose businesses were built on that model. When they lost one or more of their stable clients, they couldn't cope with the real forces at work in the marketplace. I think of such entrepreneurs as babies crawling through a war zone, somehow avoiding the mayhem all around them.

I don't know if that was you or not, but you don't talk like someone who's successfully dealt with the real world forces that control the free market. You sound a lot more like an armchair theorist with a liberal bent.

You hold the same sort of assumptions that most liberals hold, namely that any job ought to pay a 'living wage', and that businesses are obligated to do whatever it takes to pay people at some arbitrarily determined level, just because the mob says they should.

You also assume (like liberals do) that businesses can simply raise their prices to accommodate higher wage demands from their employees, and that employees can force a business to do that by organizing a union.

Those are communistic viewpoints, and very strange for a conservative.

This has been interesting, but I think I'm done now. You've got some fixed viewpoints that aren't shifting in this conversation. That says to me that your utopian ideas of how a free market operates, are more real to you than the real world facts I'm presenting.

Later.

135 posted on 12/02/2012 11:26:50 AM PST by Windflier (To anger a conservative, tell him a lie. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth.)
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To: JCBreckenridge

“That’s my exact point. Thank you. TX is not CA or NYC. If the people of NYC want to pay their McDonalds workers 20/hr, fine by them.”

I agree that this is more of a regional issue.
The issue IMO of a federal minimum wage is that it’s a big city solution that doesn’t work in rural areas.

Like your personal example of living well on less.
I know small town folks who have combined incomes of 50-60K a year and they live well.
A mandated minimum wage of say $12 an hour would seriously damage a lot of small town economies.
By that same notion though, you can’t expect a small town solution to remedy stagnant wages and skyrocketing costs of living in a place like NYC.
The argument that says they should just move is a bit simple minded. It’s like saying if you don’t have enough...well make more money.


136 posted on 12/02/2012 11:31:35 AM PST by snarkybob (')
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To: snarkybob

“you can’t expect a small town solution to remedy stagnant wages and skyrocketing costs of living in a place like NYC.”

Let me ask you a question.

If someone came up to you and said that gravitational acceleration was over 10 m/s in their location, what would you say to them and why? You’d say that was bogus because, “gravity works the same everywhere”.

See, this is the thing about economics. Economics works, everywhere. The reason why NYC is doing so poorly is because they indulge in bad economics. Everyone can live like I do - the problem in NYC is that the law is set up to deliberately defy economics.

If NYC were to bring their minimum wage down to where it was nationally, NYC would actually see their COL go down.


137 posted on 12/02/2012 11:41:50 AM PST by JCBreckenridge (Texas is a state of mind. - John Steinbeck :))
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To: Windflier

“You hold the same sort of assumptions that most liberals hold, namely that any job ought to pay a ‘living wage’, and that businesses are obligated to do whatever it takes to pay people at some arbitrarily determined level, just because the mob says they should.”

Then I’m obviously not being clear.
I didn’t say anything about anybody being owed a living wage.
What I said is if the business can’t pay wages that workers are willing to work for and the workers have an option to unionize then they will.
We were discussing a particular group of workers in a particular industry in a particular location.

Your business expertise (unless your business is fastfood burgers)doesn’t really carry over in this situation.
No I don’t think businesses can charge whatever they feel like charging. If McDs value meals went to $15 they’d certainly stop selling as many, but they can raise the price by $1 or so per meal...Have you ever bought a value meal at the airport? They run about $1.50 more. I’m guessing that’s because retail space cost more at the airport.

You said I seem to have a liberal slant. I think the same thing about your argument. That one size fits all.
A solution to a building trade problem in Dallas has little bearing on a fastfood issue in NYC except in the most theoretical sense.

I’d also note that with stagnant wages and rising costs of living, more people are going to turn to government assistance just to make ends almost meet. And that’s even if they are working a job.
You can say that it shouldn’t be that way, but that’s the reality of it.


138 posted on 12/02/2012 12:08:24 PM PST by snarkybob (')
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To: snarkybob
Why are you sympathizing with these enemies of our Republic?

Because I think wage busting is as big an enemy as unions.

McDonalds was founded on the premise high school age kids would be employed there.  It was not founded on the idea a man or woman would come to work there and support a family on that level salary.

This was never about wage busting.  It was about a business model that adults decided to crash, and now complain about.  There is a considerable difference.

McDonalds didn't just come under new management.  Their policies didn't just change overnight.  They are doing what they have always done.  There was a reason why they established this model decades ago.  I think the model still applies.  I don't think they're pulling the wool over anyone's eyes here.


I don't see them as an enemy of the people, are any descriptive labeling that comes close to that.

There wouldn’t be unions had they not become necassary. To a large degree they’ve outlived their usefullness.

I pretty much agree with the first sentence here.  As for the second, here's how I would have stated it. 
To a large degree they’ve outlived their usefullness.  Worse yet, they've become a massive destructive force globally.

Any CEO will tell you straight out that their only goal is to make money, if that means outsourcing then they outsource, if it means paying substandard wages and they can get away with it then they do that as well.

Okay, and here's the example that contrasts with the McDonald's model.  The jobs that were outsourced, were jobs that adults did traditionally take.  They WERE supposed to support families.  And that's why I call one evil, and don't the other.  We became a nation second to none with jobs that supported families.  What has happened since?  We sold ourselves out here.  It's painfully obvious.

Families weren't going bust before we started outsourcing.  Manufacturing workers were able to purchase the goods made in the United States.  They were also able to afford a home, clothe and feed their families.  They were able to purchase the family vehicle.  Their salaries contributed to the community they were spent in.  Those familes were not a drain on society.  Can we say the same thing about service workers today?  Perhaps so if people really struggle.  In many instances the answer is no.

With McDonalds we didn't see a trade out of manufacturing level wages with minimum wages.  With manufacturing we did see that type of a swap out.  Manufacturing jobs paid a decent salary, and service jobs generally don't.  We in effect sold out the guy down the block, so a guy in China could work in his place.  There's no comparison to this model, when you look at what has been the model at McDonalds since the first unit's doors opened.

I heard the outsource argument that said companies moved overseas because unions broke them, but if it were just about pay and bennies why not just move to a right to work state.

There were instances of this.  I believe the steel industry and the vehicle manufacturing industries are good examples.  For the lions share of manufacturing moved off-shore, that wasn't the case.  Moving to a 'right to work state' wasn't really going to accomplish anything in most instances.  They already had a non-union shop.  

The middle class is largely gone and that’s not going to come back if the policy is that large Corps can pay whatever they feel like paying the workers.

In some instances I have more sympathy towards your agument here, than I do in others.  The McDonalds model doesn't support your emphasis here.  It's model was never intended to support families.  The Walmart model would be a much better claim IMO.  That being said, it's a very tough call for me to accept that 'Here it is, please pay on the way out' is as worthy of manufacturing wages as 'incorporating proper engineering and manufacturing requirements into your work process' would be.  In one you're a part of the creative process.  In the other, you're simply a gopher.

It may seem radical to you but I believe that somebody working a fulltime job is justified in having a reasonable expectation that they can feed, clothe, and house themselves.  Not in grand style, but where they don’t still need assistance.

In some instances I am more sympathetic to your claim here.  In others, there's no possibility I'm going to agree with you.  And I have to say, that I see a return of manufacturing to the United States, to be much more prefferable than simply artificially paying people with no hand in the creative process, the same wages as someone who did, or more acurately, would have.

Increasing the wages of people outside the creative process, becomes the worst of all worlds.  We move the jobs off-short to decrease costs.  We lose the manufacturing jobs, we hand over the proprietary patent information, in short order we lose R&D, and then we pay people the same salary for doing nothing that is creative.  And then you have the union which has jumped in with both socialist feet, dictating to employers and the employees, helping to elect the worst socialist (read that enemy of our nation, and in Obama's case way beyond just socialist) they can find. 

And if you look at this clearly focused, you'll note that the union who professes to want to help the family unit on the front end, is using almost all it's energy to devise and implement policies that will destroy every right of parents and thus the family units.


BTW I thought a lot of posts on this thread were more than anti union, they were anti working people.

And ultimately, you may see my comments that way too.  If you do, I can't help that.  As citizens you and I are supposed to advocate for sound policy.  That's what I'm trying to do.  

Go forward with that message and see how many people it converts to any conservative cause.


It IS NOT the duty of the Conservative cause to become socialist to win converts.

It IS the duty of the Conservative cause to find ways to explain sound policy, so that it will make so much sense to people that they will be unable to support anything else by the conviction of their own concience.

We simply cannot read the failure of us to do our job, as proof positive that we must abandon reason, and adopt the tenets of anarchy.

It's sad, but we have become like the new employee who states, "That's too hard.  I can't possibly do it that way.  You need to change that."  Then once he's trained properly, "He says, now I understand.  This isn't hard at all, and I understand why you asked me to do it that way in the first place."

It's time we went back to the drawing board.  We're failing our task.  We need to be trained properly, and we need to put in a lot of overtime.

139 posted on 12/02/2012 12:17:55 PM PST by DoughtyOne (Hurricane Sandy..., a week later and over 60 million Americans still didn't have power.)
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To: DoughtyOne

“This was never about wage busting. It was about a business model that adults decided to crash, and now complain about. There is a considerable difference.”

I would say that whatever the earlier business model, that’s not the case now.
If it were meant as a kids job, they should have maintained the practice of hiring kids.
I’m actually part of the problem as I don’t eat fast food, but my kids do sometimes. The McDs nearest our house only has adult workers and their English is not very good.
I don’t know if they’re illegals ot guest workers.

I agree with the other points you made.


140 posted on 12/02/2012 12:31:15 PM PST by snarkybob (')
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To: DeaconBenjamin

Just a thought....
How about the restaurants pushing back with offering an alternative pay: the workers can take home 12 “value combo meals” per day, arrange mass-transit passes for 2 rides per day, and housing voucher for going rate on 500 sq feet basic housing rental.
There. Your ends are met. “Now what did you REALLY want from this negotiation?”


141 posted on 12/02/2012 12:43:17 PM PST by ctdonath2 ($1 meals: http://abuckaplate.blogspot.com)
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To: snarkybob

“Outside of collective bargaining how do laborers best sell their labor.”

Improve what they have to offer.

The problem is there are too many people expecting good pay for lousy work. If the market needs 10,000 workers to do what pretty much anyone can do with a few minutes’ orientation, and there’s 50,000 people wanting to do those jobs, and 10,000 of those people are willing to take minimum wage for that work, then either 40,000 people need to either figure out how to get paid less, improve their ability so they can perform jobs warranting higher pay, move, or STFU and be thankful for any opportunity that opens for them.

Collective bargaining doesn’t work in this case because there’s nothing to bargain for: if they all quit, McD’s et al just put out “Hiring” signs and get back to normal a couple days later with new staff.


142 posted on 12/02/2012 12:50:52 PM PST by ctdonath2 ($1 meals: http://abuckaplate.blogspot.com)
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To: snarkybob

“So why exactly don’t these low skilled workers deserve to be paid up to just below the poverty level.”

Because “poverty level” is a farce. The US official poverty line is some 20x world median income. If you’re being paid twenty times what the top of half the world’s population gets, you’re not poor.

Urban living is expensive. If you can’t handle the cost, you gotta go somewhere else.


143 posted on 12/02/2012 12:54:11 PM PST by ctdonath2 ($1 meals: http://abuckaplate.blogspot.com)
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To: snarkybob
This was never about wage busting. It was about a business model that adults decided to crash, and now complain about. There is a considerable difference.

I would say that whatever the earlier business model, that’s not the case now.  If it were meant as a kids job, they should have maintained the practice of hiring kids.

I believe the employer's only duty is to hire a person who can do the job and is willing to work for the wages that have been offered.  When this McDonald's unit hired these people, they did so because the potential employees asked to work for those wages.  McDonalds hired them in mutual good faith.  The potenitail employees agree to the parameters, and McDonalds agreed to allow them to work for under those parameters.  How would it have been beneficial if McDonalds had refused to hire them in the first place, because they were too old, didn't fit their business model?

I’m actually part of the problem as I don’t eat fast food, but my kids do sometimes. The McDs nearest our house only has adult workers and their English is not very good.

Saying that you are a part of a problem as it relates to this is not accurate.  You are simply making a choice that is yours to make.  You probably made a decision based on health or some other logical reasoning.  Good for you.  I fully support your decision, and it's no problem whatsoever.  You've done nothing negative here.

As for the employees you describe, there's your reason.  These folks can barely function in English.  Now they want salaries commensurate with a person who can function in the language of this nation.


I don’t know if they’re illegals ot guest workers.

Neither one should be here, if they aren't fully capable of speaking English, or educated well enough to providing for themselves and their families.  Here we are assessing blame on a business for extending it's hand to hire people nobody else would.  And this is what they get for it?

Shouldn't the blame here be on these people who are not qualified to participate in the broader jobs market?  Surely you must see some truth in this.

I agree with the other points you made.


I appreciate that.

Take care.

144 posted on 12/02/2012 12:55:29 PM PST by DoughtyOne (Hurricane Sandy..., a week later and over 60 million Americans still didn't have power.)
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To: ctdonath2

“Collective bargaining doesn’t work in this case because there’s nothing to bargain for: if they all quit, McD’s et al just put out “Hiring” signs and get back to normal a couple days later with new staff.”

Unless they unionize.
The article said that was a possibility.


145 posted on 12/02/2012 12:56:14 PM PST by snarkybob (')
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To: DoughtyOne

“Shouldn’t the blame here be on these people who are not qualified to participate in the broader jobs market? Surely you must see some truth in this.”

I do blame them, but I also blame the people who imported them and gave them jobs.
I realize flipping burgers isn’t the same as working for Boeing.
But, the argument that unions distort the market and artificialy inflate labor overlooks the fact that guest workers and illegals artificialy drive the labor market down.
If the only way to keep the price from going up is to hire illegals or guest workers doesn’t that subvert the free market.


146 posted on 12/02/2012 1:17:30 PM PST by snarkybob (')
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To: snarkybob
Shouldn’t the blame here be on these people who are not qualified to participate in the broader jobs market? Surely you must see some truth in this.

I do blame them, but I also blame the people who imported them and gave them jobs.

I doubt you envision McDonalds going to India or Bangladesh and recruiting.  I think you're making a good case against H1-B visas, but missing the mark when it comes to fast food restaurants.

I realize flipping burgers isn’t the same as working for Boeing.

No it isn't.  I'd be much more comfortable if you were making an argument with a position only a little above the McDonalds example though.  This is an important point, one that I think will help you to understand another dynamic in play here.

Why is it healthy to have different pay scales from bottom to top?  Why is the admission of a desire to see a Utopian world of equal pay an admission of not understanding fully what takes place in a Capitalist society, or for that matter, a healthy society?

How many engineers would we have if upon completion of high school, a graduate could choose from among a massive list of positions they could accept, that would afford them "a living wage"?


I would submit to you, that a number of things would take place the very moment the minimum wage was raised to $15.00 to $20.00 bucks an hour.

1. Tens of millions of jobs would vanish.
2. Tens of millions of new people would be unemployed.
3. There would be very little (almost no) incentive for anyone sixteen years and above, to continue with education.
4. We would in short order see the amount of people who were procuring advanced degrees, diminish in significant numbers.
5. We would in short order see a massive brain drain in the United States.
6. We would in short order be unable to fulfill strategically important jobs
7. We would in short order see a massive number of businesses fail.
8. The United States would hit the bottom with an echoing thud.

There has to McDonalds, or there are not only no Boeings, but very little else in-between.


But, the argument that unions distort the market and artificialy inflate labor overlooks the fact that guest workers and illegals artificialy drive the labor market down.

Well, that hasn't been overlooked by me.

If the only way to keep the price from going up is to hire illegals or guest workers doesn’t that subvert the free market.

In some instance yes, and in other instances no.

In almost all instances though, I disagree with either of these options.

147 posted on 12/02/2012 2:55:11 PM PST by DoughtyOne (Hurricane Sandy..., a week later and over 60 million Americans still didn't have power.)
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To: DoughtyOne
I had a lapse there didn’t I. Chalk up one more person who has a massive loss, if this union thing catches on.

Well, it's the age of "Hope & Change". We can expect to see more of this sort of thing over the next four years. We're about to witness a veritable orgy of leftist idealism on display throughout the country.

148 posted on 12/02/2012 3:26:40 PM PST by Windflier (To anger a conservative, tell him a lie. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth.)
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To: Windflier

Yes, sadly, I agree. And it’s also sad to see otherwise sound people, be moved in part on the lies of these groups.

It’s going to be a time of required heightened vigilance.


149 posted on 12/02/2012 3:34:19 PM PST by DoughtyOne (Hurricane Sandy..., a week later and over 60 million Americans still didn't have power.)
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To: DoughtyOne

Thanks for your replies.
I like thought out positions like yours, even if I disagree.
In this case the disagreement is actually not very much.

I’m not a class warrior. I do know that everything can’t be equal or there’s no inecntive to move forward.
I do believe tho that all labor has value. Even cleaning the muck from the gutters.

I’m not sure how it happened, that’s probably why it happened, but my experience with wage distortion is based on the construction trade in Texas.
When I left high school many of the boys in my peer group
myself included, opted to skip college.
We were all rural kids and most of us had been working some kind of blue collar labor job since we were old enough to work.
Obviously some blue collar jobs were’nt realistic. My senior year job was as a ranch hand and that didn’t pay enough to eat on a regular basis even back then.

Most of us that opted out of higher education got jobs as carpenters, drywallers, roofers, truck drivers....you get the gist.
Fast forward 15 years, suddenly these guys notice they’re being pinched. Everything costs more and they’re still within a couple of dollars an hour of where they started.

Then I started noticing that the construction crews were speaking less and less English.
At first I didn’t worry about it, figuring that anybody could drive a nail or make big piles out of little piles.
After a while though I started to realize that the trend for cheap labor had not only done away with what had been traditional entry level construction jobs, but the new workers were causing the pay for foremen and assistant foreman to stop getting bumped.

The new workers had none of the creative thought that you mentioned, they had zero curiosty about, or interest in their jobs other than to get a check on Friday. They were willing to work for just about half what the job had paid in previous years.

At about this same time I begin to notice that the materials used in construction jobs was getting crappier and crappier. I mean the cheapest junk that could be purchased.

I asked and was told that the cheap labor and materials were to keep the costs for construction projects low enough that they were affordable.

Funny thing, those projects kept right on climbing in costs and not just for houses but for things like roofs and floors and siding.

I wish I had some idea where it all goes from here, but IMHO the greed factor now outweighs the sense factor.
Some things have gotten cheaper, ChiCom junk from Walmart for example, but real goods and services haven’t stayed low cost.

The factory jobs seemed safe until the wave upon wave of outsourcing killed them as well.

The ripple effect has been catostrophic.
People work full time jobs to live on the margin. They fell into the easy credit trap. I know a lot of people who lived beyond their means via credit cards, but I also know a lot of people who were racking up CC debt just to stay fed and clothed.
God help you if you get sick or injured or miss a weeks work.
To get any kind of gainful employment you almost have to have a college degree that you then spend the next 15 years paying for. And even the college degree jobs aren’t paying at the top of the scale.

Somethings going to have to give. Because the people downsized or under employed or underpayed aren’t going to evaporate when they hit bottom. They’re going to come asking for assistance.
I’ve seen it said on this forum that a good parasite doesn’t kill its host, this is usually said about people on welfare, but the parasites at the top have done a pretty good job of it as well.

There’s a thread running now about what happened when the manufacturing sector was taken over by MBAs and displacing the designers, engineers, marketers and sellers who had traditionaly ran things.

Sorry this was so long winded. I had to take a break from FR and actually get a little something done.

Hope your Sunday is enjoyable.


150 posted on 12/02/2012 4:19:25 PM PST by snarkybob (')
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