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Secession: It's constitutional (Walter E. Williams offers evidence from .... U.S. history)
WND ^ | November 27, 2012 | Walter E. Williams

Posted on 11/28/2012 9:42:40 AM PST by Perseverando

For decades, it has been obvious that there are irreconcilable differences between Americans who want to control the lives of others and those who wish to be left alone. Which is the more peaceful solution: Americans using the brute force of government to beat liberty-minded people into submission, or simply parting company? In a marriage, where vows are ignored and broken, divorce is the most peaceful solution. Similarly, our constitutional and human rights have been increasingly violated by a government instituted to protect them. Americans who support constitutional abrogation have no intention of mending their ways.

Since Barack Obama’s re-election, hundreds of thousands of petitioners for secession have reached the White House. Some people have argued that secession is unconstitutional, but there’s absolutely nothing in the Constitution that prohibits it. What stops secession is the prospect of brute force by a mighty federal government, as witnessed by the costly War of 1861. Let’s look at the secession issue.

At the 1787 Constitutional Convention, a proposal was made to allow the federal government to suppress a seceding state. James Madison, the acknowledged father of our Constitution, rejected it, saying: “A Union of the States containing such an ingredient seemed to provide for its own destruction. The use of force against a State would look more like a declaration of war than an infliction of punishment and would probably be considered by the party attacked as a dissolution of all previous compacts by which it might be bound.”

On March 2, 1861, after seven states had seceded and two days before Abraham Lincoln’s inauguration, Sen. James R. Doolittle of Wisconsin proposed a constitutional amendment that said, “No State or any part thereof, heretofore admitted or hereafter admitted into the Union, shall have the power to withdraw from the jurisdiction of the United

(Excerpt) Read more at wnd.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Government; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: 10thamendment; constitution; cw2; kkk; klan; secession; statesrights
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1 posted on 11/28/2012 9:42:45 AM PST by Perseverando
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To: Perseverando

The Articles of Confederation and the Constitution explicitly made the Union perpetual until and unless the States ratify the secession of a State in exactly the same means by which the State secured accession to the perpetual Union. claims that the Constitution does not forbid unilateral secession are totally false and deceptive.


2 posted on 11/28/2012 9:54:11 AM PST by WhiskeyX
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To: Perseverando
This article sums it up nicely. It's time for the rubber to meet the road.

If anyone thinks that 'filing paperwork' is going to lead to the FedGov agreeing with any secession movement, they are living in a dream world.

Secession is going to take force and bloodshed, in the mildest of circumstances. The FedGov is not going to let go the power it has compiled without a fight. It is going to have to be pried from the FedGov's hand by force.

Now let's see if force is going to follow, when the paperwork is laughed at and used for kindling.

3 posted on 11/28/2012 9:57:08 AM PST by Fedupwithit (You gave him what he wanted. I gave him what he needed.)
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To: Perseverando
Lincoln said that the soldiers sacrificed their lives “to the cause of self-determination – that government of the people, by the people, for the people should not perish from the earth.” Mencken says: “It is difficult to imagine anything more untrue. The Union soldiers in the battle actually fought against self-determination; it was the Confederates who fought for the right of people to govern themselves.”

Well, no. The Confederates fought for the right of white men to govern themselves, and to also forcibly govern black men.

It is a real tragedy that the secession movement was tainted by and based on the desire to perpetuate and expand slavery. The idea of secession in and of itself is not inherently wrong.

4 posted on 11/28/2012 10:01:55 AM PST by Sherman Logan
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To: Perseverando

Zero states will secede from the U.S. This is all wing-nuttery that takes attention and effort away from actually rolling up our sleeves and getting back to work for 2014 & 2016.


5 posted on 11/28/2012 10:02:53 AM PST by gdani
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To: Fedupwithit

When the Beast on the Potomac dies it will die like the Soviet Union - insolvent, unsupported and largely unmourned. Until it is too poor to pay for the brute force to compel submission however, it will destroy anyone anywhere who threatens the sweet life in Capitol.

“And may the odds be ever in your favor.”


6 posted on 11/28/2012 10:04:26 AM PST by Psalm 144 ("I didn't the Democratic Party. The party left me." Ronald Wilson Reagan)
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To: Perseverando
“If at first you don't secede, try, try again.”

Bumper sticker seen in South Carolina

7 posted on 11/28/2012 10:08:24 AM PST by Travis McGee (www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com)
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To: Sherman Logan
Well, no. The Confederates fought for the right of white men to govern themselves, and to also forcibly govern black men.

And here I thought the whole deal had more to do with taxation without representation - the South was paying a huge burden compared to the North. I thought that Lincoln decided to "sweeten the pot" and make all the killing of those who disagreed "more palatable" by adding emancipation after the war was underway.

8 posted on 11/28/2012 10:09:41 AM PST by trebb (Allies no longer trust us. Enemies no longer fear us.)
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To: Perseverando

The problem with this notion of secession is that secession by definition means the withdrawing by a geographical section from the Union.

In 1860 this was feasible. In most of the states that later seceded Lincoln did not receive a single vote. The division was almost entirely sectional, except in the border states and a few other areas.

In our present country, the division is primarily ideological. It is sectional simply because one or another ideology predominates in that area. In even the most conservative parts of the country there is a large and active liberal minority that would, understandably, resist secession. In contrast to 1860, the highest vote totals Romney got were in Utah (72%), Wyoming (69%) and Oklahoma (67%). Most of the old CSA states came in with substantially smaller majorities for Romney.

So any seceding state would not only have to fight invading federal forces, it would at the same time have to fight an internal civil war to suppress dissent.

And since the American way for which conservatives would be fighting is based on the idea of the people ruling themselves, crushing dissent by force is pretty much a betrayal of that for which we would fight.


9 posted on 11/28/2012 10:11:46 AM PST by Sherman Logan
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To: Perseverando
The Constitution never would have been ratified if states thought that they could not maintain their sovereignty.

Apparently Mr. Williams is a Freeper. I have posted that sentence about 100 times, along with many others.

10 posted on 11/28/2012 10:12:08 AM PST by central_va ( I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: Sherman Logan

Well, no. The Civil War was not fought over slavery. Economics: Northern mercantilism. Slavery was already becoming uneconomical (cotton prices, corn the new cash crop) Lincoln freeing the slaves was an after thought—and he only freed the slaves in southern states. Missouri? U.S. Grant? Had slaves.


11 posted on 11/28/2012 10:13:31 AM PST by SC_Pete
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To: Fedupwithit

I think the North East power structure would let Texas and a few other states go without a fight. These are not you GGGF Yankees that charged Marye’s Heights, these are wusses.


12 posted on 11/28/2012 10:16:40 AM PST by central_va ( I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: Perseverando

Please forward to Glenn Beck.


13 posted on 11/28/2012 10:17:16 AM PST by central_va ( I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: Travis McGee

Williams is correct. The hostilities did not begin until the hot heads in Charleston fired on Fort Sumter. The States voluntarily formed a union. A State can voluntarily withdraw from said union. Whether the remaining States allow this to happen or not is another matter. Power is not always right, but power is always power. Kinda like the vehicle and pederestrain. The pederestrain has the right of way over the vehicle. The trouble begins when the pederestrain exercises that riight.


14 posted on 11/28/2012 10:18:41 AM PST by sport
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To: gdani

So you are calling Mr. Williams a nut? Are you a racist?


15 posted on 11/28/2012 10:19:01 AM PST by central_va ( I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: central_va

Also, I’m pretty sure that I read some Walter Williams articles over twenty years ago in which he said exactly the same thing.


16 posted on 11/28/2012 10:19:18 AM PST by Ammo Republic 15
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To: trebb
And here I thought the whole deal had more to do with taxation without representation - the South was paying a huge burden compared to the North.

Exactly how were they unrepresented? The South dominated the national government right up to 1860.

The total budget of the federal government in 1860 was $60M. That's less than $2 per capita for the country, less than $7 per capita if paid entirely by the slave states, and less than $12 per capita if paid entirely by white southerners. And of course the taxes were almost entirely tariffs on imports, so the final purchaser of the imported item paid it, whether he did so in New Orleans or Chicago.

The fact is that federal taxes were a miniscule burden for anybody in 1860, and could entirely be avoided if desired simply by not purchasing tariffed items.

Do you seriously contend that this tiny taxation burden, one of the lowest of any nation in history, justified a war that cost over 600k men their lives and devastated a section of the country?

17 posted on 11/28/2012 10:21:50 AM PST by Sherman Logan
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To: WhiskeyX
the Constitution explicitly made the Union perpetual until and unless the States ratify the secession of a State in exactly the same means by which the State secured accession to the perpetual Union.

You are saying that this is explicit in the Constitution - please refer me to the provision that you are talking about. Thanks!

18 posted on 11/28/2012 10:22:08 AM PST by Stingray51
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To: WhiskeyX
Perhaps, but, 11 states representing 2/3 of the geographical union was hardly unilateral, was it?
19 posted on 11/28/2012 10:24:08 AM PST by MrChips (MrChips)
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To: Sherman Logan

Loyalists had to be killed during the secession from England as well..

F—k it.... We are screwed anyway... We might as well go down swinging lets give it a shot.


20 posted on 11/28/2012 10:24:28 AM PST by myself6 (NOT voting for the GOP's socialist - Romney)
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To: Sherman Logan
No, it did not justify the war cost. Lincoln should not have gone to war.

P.S. Kep in mind, as well, that $1 was worth something back then.

21 posted on 11/28/2012 10:26:53 AM PST by MrChips (MrChips)
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To: Sherman Logan
No, it did not justify the war cost. Lincoln should not have gone to war.

P.S. Keep in mind, as well, that $1 was worth something back then.

22 posted on 11/28/2012 10:27:12 AM PST by MrChips (MrChips)
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To: Perseverando

I don’t see a reason for violence. Texas is probably the best candidate. You’d need a governor and legislature that wanted secession. All they would have to do is declare themselves an independent country and withdraw the credentials of their congress critters unless they wanted one as an ambassador.

You can collect social security if you move to a foreign country. Texas wouldn’t be any different. The feds would have to negotiate with Texas as an equal and not an inferior. If enough contiguous states joined with Texas, they might render DC irrelevant.

Texas contributes far more to the federal budget than it gets returned. With all of the refinery capacity, they’d do fine. Valenzuela might even cut them a break on heavy crude.

I think most of the countries in the world might not be unhappy about a breakup. Of course if enough states reformed to create a nation governed under the Constituion without the commerce clause a much more powerful country could be formed.

The real losers would be the few blue states left out in the cold. They could be readmitted to the new union, but they wouldn’t have the same power. One of the requirements for joining should be a fiscally responsible government operating under a budget with absolutely no deficits allowed.


23 posted on 11/28/2012 10:27:55 AM PST by meatloaf (Support Senate S 1863 & House Bill 1380 to eliminate oil slavery.)
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To: central_va

No, the NE states suck up Texas oil for their heating bills.


24 posted on 11/28/2012 10:28:30 AM PST by MrChips (MrChips)
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To: myself6

Secession does not solve every problem, it just substitutes a new more manageable set of problems for the insurmountable problems created by an out of control FedGov™.


25 posted on 11/28/2012 10:29:07 AM PST by central_va ( I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: myself6

If it happens... and I pray it does not... I will answer the call of Lady Liberty.

LLS


26 posted on 11/28/2012 10:30:23 AM PST by LibLieSlayer (WOLVERINES!)
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To: Fedupwithit

Whether it is Constitutional or not, secession is one of the options to break the mean-spirited domination of American life and culture through the “phony liberalism” of the current set of elites who have distanced themselves from actual contact with the people who live down here on the ground.

The Federal government is not interested in making any such secession amicable. But the Tenth Amendment of the Constitution clearly states, “The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.”

The Supreme Court and both the executive and legislative branches of the Federal Government have, in fact, arrogated to themselves a number of powers that rightly belong to the several States, and up to now, this is largely unchallenged, because of a broad but very vague interpretation of the “Interstate Commerce clause” in the body of the Constitution.

King George of England once thought he had a free mandate to do as he wished in dealing with the colonies along the eastern seacoast of the North American continent. Ended up with a split decision on that, as the more northerly English colonies opted to remain under the Crown’s dominion.

Time for a Redeclaration of Independence. And once that is won, a Constitutional Convention to write out the ambiguities and contradictions contained in the existing Constitution of the United States.


27 posted on 11/28/2012 10:31:47 AM PST by alloysteel (Bronco Bama - the cowboy who whooped up and widened the stampede.)
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To: Perseverando; Travis McGee; central_va
Walter Williams is arguably the smartest man on the face of the Earth.

His only other competition is Thomas Sowell.

Walter Williams has been talking about a national divorce since like 2000.

He sees the writing on the wall, producers and looters can not co-exist together anymore.

28 posted on 11/28/2012 10:31:47 AM PST by KC_Lion (Build the America you want to live in at your address, and keep looking up.-Sarah Palin)
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To: Sherman Logan
In even the most conservative parts of the country there is...

I'm behind enemy lines, in MA, and there is a good conservative minority here. Thus, any breakup would lead to clashes within both seceeders and seceedees.

Things are so distorted here that in a recent state senator race, the 'R candidate got 35% of the vote with NO money, no name recognition, no bumper stickers/lawn signs/phone calls or standouts; no campaign whatsoever. It's just that a frustrated conservative minority will vote against the single communist party here, no matter who or what is on the ballot, in pure disgust.

29 posted on 11/28/2012 10:32:03 AM PST by C210N (In favor of private rights and public happiness)
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To: Perseverando

I do not think that is important whether federal law permits states to secede from the Union. Surely, British law did not permit the American colonies to unilaterally decide to become independent. It was clearly illegal under British law. Yet, the Patriots relied upon the superior, natural rights of man, citing their God-given rights and declaring that “whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it...” Who would expect the United States government, including its Supreme Court, to declare secession legal? I would presume the very opposite.


30 posted on 11/28/2012 10:33:01 AM PST by Stingray51
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To: SC_Pete
Lincoln freeing the slaves was an after thought—and he only freed the slaves in southern states. Missouri? U.S. Grant? Had slaves.

Have seen this repeated before, that getting rid of slavery was an afterthought. So I did a little research. It shows comprehensively that the hemming in and then destruction of slavery was a continuous process from May of 1861 (the month after the war started) to December of 1865, when it finally triumphed.

1861

May: General Butler refuses to return three slaves being used to build CSA fortifications to their owner.

Concept of “contraband of war” originated.

August: Confiscation Act of 1861 declares that any property, including slaves, used by CSA could be confiscated by military action.

September: “Contrabands” employed by US Army and Navy paid wages, in addition to rations

November: Nathaniel Gordon (a Mainer) convicted and sentenced to death in NYC for slave trading (classified as piracy)

1862

February: Nathaniel Gordon executed

March: Washington, DC slaves freed by Congress

Return of escaped slaves to their owners prohibited by Congress

April: Congress offers compensation to any state that emancipates

May: Lincoln publicly urges border states to free slaves

Slavery prohibited in territories

July: Lincoln appeals again to the border states

September: Preliminary Emancipation Proclamation

1863

January: Final Emancipation Proclamation

July: WV slaves freed by state action

1864

January: 13th Amendment introduced

March: AR slaves freed by state action

April: 13th Amendment passes Senate

June: Congress repeals Fugitive Slave Law

September: LA slaves freed by state action

November: MD slaves freed by state action

1865

January: MO slaves freed by state action

13th Amendment passes House

February: TN slaves freed by state action

April: Lee surrenders

December: 13th Amendment ratified

Slaves in KY (50,000) and DE (200) freed

Notably, as you can see, Missouri slaves were freed by state action, not by the 13th Amendment.

As far as cotton becoming uneconomical, that is no doubt why slave prices reached their all-time high in 1860. Wise businessmen always bid up the price of a commodity when it is losing its market. /sarc

31 posted on 11/28/2012 10:34:05 AM PST by Sherman Logan
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To: Perseverando
I say every conservative pitch in a few Hundred and buy a sparsely populated area of Western Canada. And start anew.
32 posted on 11/28/2012 10:34:38 AM PST by BigCinBigD (...Was that okay?)
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To: Stingray51

The Constitution is silent on the subject of secession. Meaning it is a right reserved for the state(s). Read Mr. Williams article it is well worth it.


33 posted on 11/28/2012 10:35:48 AM PST by central_va ( I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: C210N

Quite correct. Which is why any civil war today would be a much nastier affair than the Late Unpleasantness of the 1860s.

Our Civil War was more a war between sections than a war between neighbors, except of course in the border states, where the war was a great deal nastier than elsewhere, for exactly that reason. In an ideological civil war the enemy is not just the enemy, he’s also a traitor.

Of all great civil wars down through history, ours was fought with fewer atrocities than any other, by a huge margin. Doesn’t mean really bad things didn’t happen here, but look into the English, Spanish, Chinese, Russian, etc. civil wars and you’ll see what I mean.


34 posted on 11/28/2012 10:39:30 AM PST by Sherman Logan
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To: Perseverando
Walter Williams has more integrity & courage than almost any other columnist. Through the decades, he has been a beacon of reason, while others pandered to what seemed popular at the moment.

He understands the dynamics of the infra-structure of a society, a government; here, a Federation, created by a written compact between sovereign peoples. It was Williams who identified the outrage--while it was still in progress under Clinton & Reno--at Waco. Williams who is willing to expose the socially destructive absurdities of the "Civil Rights" movement, more candidly than any equally prominent White Conservative. (He does not walk on eggs, lest he offend the agitators.)

God Bless this good man, in America's hour of need!

William Flax

35 posted on 11/28/2012 10:42:53 AM PST by Ohioan
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To: Stingray51

The following are only part of the documents which forbid secession from the Perpetual Union. Thee are other provisions which implicitly restrict the ability to secede without the consent of Congress, the States, and the seceding State.

Articles of Confederation and perpetual Union

XIII.
Every State shall abide by the determination of the United States in Congress assembled, on all questions which by this confederation are submitted to them. And the Articles of this Confederation shall be inviolably observed by every State, and the Union shall be perpetual; nor shall any alteration at any time hereafter be made in any of them; unless such alteration be agreed to in a Congress of the United States, and be afterwards confirmed by the legislatures of every State.

And Whereas it hath pleased the Great Governor of the World to incline the hearts of the legislatures we respectively represent in Congress, to approve of, and to authorize us to ratify the said Articles of Confederation and perpetual Union. Know Ye that we the undersigned delegates, by virtue of the power and authority to us given for that purpose, do by these presents, in the name and in behalf of our respective constituents, fully and entirely ratify and confirm each and every of the said Articles of Confederation and perpetual Union, and all and singular the matters and things therein contained: And we do further solemnly plight and engage the faith of our respective constituents, that they shall abide by the determinations of the United States in Congress assembled, on all questions, which by the said Confederation are submitted to them. And that the Articles thereof shall be inviolably observed by the States we respectively represent, and that the Union shall be perpetual.

THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

Article. IV.
Section. 3. New States may be admitted by the Congress into this Union; but no new State shall be formed or erected within the Jurisdiction of any other State; nor any State be formed by the Junction of two or more States, or Parts of States, ithout the Consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned as well as of the Congress.

The Congress shall have Power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to Prejudice any Claims of the United States, or of any particular State.

Section. 4. The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence.

Article. VI.

All Debts contracted and Engagements entered into, before the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Constitution, as under the Confederation.

This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any state to the Contrary notwithstanding.


36 posted on 11/28/2012 10:44:42 AM PST by WhiskeyX
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To: Sherman Logan

silly F’ers always wanna turn this into an argument about the civil war. its emotionally charged and tied with slavery, its how they end discussion of the subject...

Screw the civil war... Doesnt mean a damn thing today.

If People no longer want to suffer the influence of the stupid M’er F’ers who want to subject everyone to the tyranny of a forced collective. They have the basic human right to break those ties of association, and if enough people in an area (or state) feel the same way they can choose to do the same and setup something more compatible with freedom and liberty.

What exactly happened with the loyalists after the colonies seceded from England?


37 posted on 11/28/2012 10:44:43 AM PST by myself6 (NOT voting for the GOP's socialist - Romney)
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To: meatloaf
Texas contributes far more to the federal budget than it gets returned.

Well, no. TX (2005 stats but unlikely to have changed dramatically) receives $.94 for every dollar it sends to the feds. Which is just about exactly in the middle of the pack.

http://taxfoundation.org/article/federal-taxing-and-spending-benefit-some-states-leave-others-paying-bill-1

NM gets the most return for its tax dollars at $2.03, and NJ gets the least return at $.61.

38 posted on 11/28/2012 10:46:02 AM PST by Sherman Logan
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To: Sherman Logan

All the more reason to secede, cut off all DC money. The deadbeats either work,starve or leave.


39 posted on 11/28/2012 10:48:01 AM PST by central_va ( I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: central_va

Agreed.

I would risk everything just for a chance to help manage those problems after a secession.


40 posted on 11/28/2012 10:49:31 AM PST by myself6 (NOT voting for the GOP's socialist - Romney)
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To: myself6

Sherman Logan is a status quo statist boot licker. The US could elect Hitler Jr. and he would fight anyone wanting to break away. It is his way.


41 posted on 11/28/2012 10:49:47 AM PST by central_va ( I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: myself6
What exactly happened with the loyalists after the colonies seceded from England?

A great many of them were treated the way the losing side in most civil conflicts were traditionally treated: imprisonment and in some cases executions, confiscation of property, disenfranchisement, etc.

About 2% of the population of the United States fled the country in the Loyalist exodus.

Which is why I find southern claims of their great mistreatment after the War so unhistorical, the fact being that the South was treated less harshly than any similar group in history after a great civil war. Exactly one trial and execution for war crimes. Not one for treason.

42 posted on 11/28/2012 10:51:04 AM PST by Sherman Logan
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To: myself6

No freedom loving person, with an IQ above room temperature, could argue against that it would be easier for a state(like Texas) to start over than try to “reform” FedGov™.


43 posted on 11/28/2012 10:52:25 AM PST by central_va ( I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: LibLieSlayer

Me too brother... Me too....

However... I pray that secession DOES happen, as Im convinced that there is no rehabilitation of the masses of idiots that willingly subject themselves and us to tyranny.

We either leave them, kill them, or let them kill us. I prefer just leaving peacefully, if it gets ugly after that... Well... thats on them....


44 posted on 11/28/2012 10:54:55 AM PST by myself6 (NOT voting for the GOP's socialist - Romney)
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To: Perseverando

Bookmark.


45 posted on 11/28/2012 10:58:31 AM PST by OldPossum
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To: central_va

Interesting. I post facts and opinions based on those facts. I do not insult those who disagree.

You post unjustified insults based on nothing at all other than that I disagree with you.

IMO this tells the reader a great deal about us both.


46 posted on 11/28/2012 10:58:31 AM PST by Sherman Logan
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To: Sherman Logan

All I know is you are all over this thread. You have made you point. Please start a vanity on “Why Mr. Williams is wrong” I am sure you will get thousands of replies.


47 posted on 11/28/2012 11:00:25 AM PST by central_va ( I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: Perseverando
It's Time to Part Company
48 posted on 11/28/2012 11:01:30 AM PST by B.O. Plenty (Give WAR a chance.......)
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To: MrChips

On the contrary, each of the States held its own secession convention to authorize its own singular secession. In many casees the secession convention resulted in voting that denied the State the authority to secede. In a number of States Democrat vote fraud was rampant. Voters and officials were murdered, ballot boxes stolen, and anti-secession votes removed from the ballot counts to secure a fraudulent vote for secession. When a secession conveention failed, another seecession convention was held with changes to voting rules and voting count rules changed to fix a pro-secession result. The nation’s by far bloodiest war ever was the result of very massive vote fraud. In Texas, the secessionist leaders didn’t even wait for the results of the secession convention to be determined before they went ahead and sent deleegates to the Confederate States Congress to join Texas to the Confederacy. Governor Sam Houston and other Texas officers were illegally removed from office by the secessionists while Texas was still a State in the Perpetual Union of the United States of America. This is one of the many reasons why governor Sam Houston refused to recognize the authority of the rebel legislature and rebel govenment.


49 posted on 11/28/2012 11:03:23 AM PST by WhiskeyX
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To: myself6
silly F’ers always wanna turn this into an argument about the civil war. its emotionally charged and tied with slavery, its how they end discussion of the subject...

Actually, the author of the piece on which we are commenting, Mr. Williams, chose to drag the civil war into it. Basing part of his argument on the highly debatable proposition that southern secession was justified as "self-determination."

Notably he included no explanation of how this applied in MS and SC, in both of which states black people were a majority in 1860.

They weren't allowed self-determination of whether they wished to remain in the Union. In fact, they weren't allowed any self-determination at all, being in the eyes of the law merely chattel.

As I said above, there is a legitimate argument for secession today. But when proponents want to justify secession today by legitimizing the Confederacy and by extension the slavery-based society it fought to defend, they are blowing both feet off with a machine gun.

50 posted on 11/28/2012 11:04:33 AM PST by Sherman Logan
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