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How Team Obama Justifies the Killing of a 16-Year-Old American
The Atlantic ^ | October 24, 2012 | Conor Friedersdorf

Posted on 10/25/2012 7:54:33 PM PDT by opentalk

Cornered by reporters with video cameras, former White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs, a senior adviser to President Obama's reelection campaign, attempted to defend the kill list...

The second notable statement concerns the killing of 16-year-old American citizen Abdulrahman al-Awlaki..

ADAMSON: ...It's an American citizen that is being targeted without due process, without trial. And, he's underage. He's a minor.

GIBBS: I would suggest that you should have a far more responsible father if they are truly concerned about the well being of their children. I don't think becoming an al Qaeda jihadist terrorist is the best way to go about doing your business.

.. He was hit by a drone strike elsewhere... his father had already been dead for two weeks. Gibbs nevertheless defends the strike, not by arguing that the kid was a threat, or that killing him was an accident, but by saying that his late father irresponsibly joined al Qaeda terrorists. Killing an American citizen without due process

(Excerpt) Read more at m.theatlantic.com ...


TOPICS: Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: abuseofpower; accountability; drones; executivepower; ndaa; obama; slipperyslope; transparency; wot

1 posted on 10/25/2012 7:54:37 PM PDT by opentalk
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To: opentalk
Yes, the justification is wrong. But if you are a 16 year old hanging out with people who are behind enemy lines who are plotting to kill us, I have little sympathy for you. There is always the reality of collateral damage. It always occurs or is a possibility. If we refuse to allow collateral damage, we will be rendered incapable of action and we will be defeated.
2 posted on 10/25/2012 7:59:48 PM PDT by marktwain
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To: marktwain
The left is turning on President Obama. Bad things happen to people who hang out with bad people. The left doesn’t understand that, and they are looking for an offramp in any case.
3 posted on 10/25/2012 8:04:28 PM PDT by ghannonf18
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To: marktwain

“Yes, the justification is wrong. But if you are a 16 year old hanging out with people who are behind enemy lines who are plotting to kill us, I have little sympathy for you.”

I’m with you. There are lots of fun places to visit and hang out - like Australia, Germany, Italy, Peru, etc. Is it really necessary to visit a country that President Obama is blasting off the map (perhaps the only policy I respect of Obama), given all the alternatives - particularly when your pops is US Enemy #1?


4 posted on 10/25/2012 8:05:21 PM PDT by BobL (You can live each day only once. You can waste a few, but don't waste too many.)
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To: opentalk

From the article:

“Take Pakistan, where the CIA kills some people without even knowing their identities.”

In war, most people are killed by people who do not know their identities. What kind of P.C. is this, that you have to ask an enemy combatant for I.D. before you can strike them?


5 posted on 10/25/2012 8:05:40 PM PDT by marktwain
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To: opentalk

Lesseee, he was hanging out with Moslem terrorists who are plotting to kill Americans?

I’m gonna have to go with 0bamao on this one.

I mean, even a stopped clock is right twice a day.


6 posted on 10/25/2012 8:07:57 PM PDT by Westbrook (Children do not divide your love, they multiply it.)
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To: marktwain

Yup. I sleep well knowing a terrorist is dead, whether he’s 10, 12 or 16. The only identity I need is “dead terrorist # 2, 800, 416”. Liberals love criminals, as the saying goes..


7 posted on 10/25/2012 8:10:48 PM PDT by max americana (Make the world a better place by punching a liberal in the face)
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To: opentalk
but by saying that his late father irresponsibly joined al Qaeda terrorists.

Now the US finds it a-ok to kill the son for the sins of the father.
Wow.

8 posted on 10/25/2012 8:19:32 PM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: opentalk

Never thought I would agree with Hussein..


9 posted on 10/25/2012 8:20:43 PM PDT by cardinal4 (Barack Hussein Obama, what American would elect a guy with that name less than 10 years after 9-11?)
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To: BobL

Don’t forget, all you Tea Partiers are “terrorists”. Watch out for attacks on your high school sons.


10 posted on 10/25/2012 8:22:11 PM PDT by VanShuyten ("a shadow...draped nobly in the folds of a gorgeous eloquence.")
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To: max americana

Dittos to that. I don’t give a rip how old the little goat humpin’ muslim terrorist is either. (Wasn’t there a video from a few years ago with some 12 year old muslim ‘head chopper in training’ sawin’ away shown?)


11 posted on 10/25/2012 8:24:07 PM PDT by bobby.223 (Retired high up in the mountains of the American Redoubt and it's a GREAT life!)
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To: OneWingedShark
Now the US finds it a-ok to kill the son for the sins of the father. Wow.

If the father takes his son into the armed camp of the enemy, behind enemy lines, and the son is killed in a strike on the enemy, I suppose that is killing the son for the sins of the father.

It is a bit of a stretch. This did not occur in a place where warrants could be served.

12 posted on 10/25/2012 8:29:06 PM PDT by marktwain
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To: marktwain
From the article..This sounds like he was the main target of intentional drone hit. His father had been killed two weeks earlier in a different location. He hadn't seen him in 2 years.
13 posted on 10/25/2012 8:41:23 PM PDT by opentalk
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To: opentalk; All
From the article..This sounds like he was the main target of intentional drone hit. His father had been killed two weeks earlier in a different location. He hadn't seen him in 2 years.

The impression that I get is that the article is trying to give that impression without any evidence that it is so.

From what I have read, the 16 year old was killed in the presence of a number of other young men around a fire by the side of a road in the tribal areas of Yemen that are not under government control.

Who else was there, and who might have been targeted and why, are not explained.

14 posted on 10/25/2012 8:55:42 PM PDT by marktwain
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To: opentalk
Killing terrorists is ok with me. However, I do have a problem with a US citizen being targeted by our Government for assassination on the say so of someone like Obama. He is after all pretty thin skinned and would rather his opponents were out of the picture.

This is how countries are lulled down the totalitarian garden path. First they start with the unsavory, undesirable,poor, and powerless-unsympathetic people that no one really cares about or has a poor opinion of them for some reason.

Once that is all set up and going well they start expanding the definition of what defines this class of citizens that is not entitled to their constitutional rights.

Pretty soon everyone is under their thumb one way or another, and has no right to object, to have due process or even breath.

15 posted on 10/25/2012 8:57:33 PM PDT by greeneyes (Moderation in defense of your country is NO virtue. Let Freedom Ring.)
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To: marktwain
If the father takes his son into the armed camp of the enemy, behind enemy lines, and the son is killed in a strike on the enemy, I suppose that is killing the son for the sins of the father. It is a bit of a stretch. This did not occur in a place where warrants could be served.

It's true that they were outside the US's jurisdiction; however, it's the justification offered that is so... unjust.
I also hesitate to point a finger saying he was palling around w/ terrorists for two reasons: 1) if he were then Gibbs would not make main point about the father, but about the terrorists; and 2) the government's willingness to label near anyone [who the government doesn't like] as terrorist {ex Tea Party}... this reediness to do so robs the term of its meaning and makes it utterly useless.

16 posted on 10/25/2012 9:16:22 PM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: VanShuyten

“Don’t forget, all you Tea Partiers are “terrorists”. Watch out for attacks on your high school sons.”

Heck, I’ll give them the coordinates if my kid is in Yemen, plotting to kill Americans.


17 posted on 10/25/2012 9:34:59 PM PDT by BobL (You can live each day only once. You can waste a few, but don't waste too many.)
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To: opentalk

no big deal....

just hush and watch with admiration as Obama polishes his Peace prize...


18 posted on 10/25/2012 9:38:46 PM PDT by eeevil conservative (GIVE ME A PLACE TO STAND AND I WILL MOVE THE EARTH....Archimedes)
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To: marktwain

It’s not collateral damage, there was no exigent circumstance and no POTUS should have the power to assasinate 16 year old American citizens anywhere. Especially when they are not wanted for anything by anybody.


19 posted on 10/25/2012 9:43:21 PM PDT by jwalsh07
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To: opentalk
Sorry folks he should not have been there but it looks like he was visiting his fathers homeland. As Americans we either stand for something or we don't. This smells of murder to me.
I'm retired military and have no love for that part of the world and would put down a terrorist in a heartbeat. This was not a terrorist. We have a right in this country that we do not have to agree with each other. They might have just killed someone because they were black, Asian, or female. There is nothing right about this.
20 posted on 10/25/2012 9:46:32 PM PDT by oldenuff2no
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To: opentalk

‘’I don’t care if that Kraut bastard is a sixteen year old snot-nosed kid in short pants or an eighty-year old syphilitic prick with asthma . If he’s behind four feet of concrete he can still pull the trigger on a machine gun and kill my men’’.— General George S. Patton in response to criticism of American GI’s shooting older and young German soldiers. I think the message is clear . You take up arms against your country at any age and get killed doing it, tough sh!t.


21 posted on 10/25/2012 10:15:35 PM PDT by jmacusa (Political correctness is cultural Marxism. I'm not a Marxist.)
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To: opentalk


22 posted on 10/26/2012 1:09:17 AM PDT by Iron Munro (Psalm 109:8 "Let his days be few, and let another take his office.")
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To: jmacusa
General George S. Patton in response to criticism of American GI’s shooting older and young German soldiers.

Patton fought a WAR. A war declared by congress. He could have wiped out every man woman an child and it would have been justified by Law.

What we're in is NOT a war. It is a police action or other somesuch nonsense because we NEVER declared WAR. Congress just made a statement of policy (Resolution) and started killing people.

--------

Don't get me wrong. I think the terrorists should be obliterated from the face of the Earth, but WHY should a government that won't follow the Constitution to engage in war worry about a little piddly issue like crapping all over someones right to due process?

23 posted on 10/26/2012 3:47:52 AM PDT by MamaTexan (I am a Person as Created by the Laws of Nature, not a person as created by the laws of Man)
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To: Iron Munro
disposition matrix

Over the past two years, the Obama administration has been secretly developing a new blueprint for pursuing terrorists, a next-generation targeting list called the “disposition matrix.”

The matrix contains the names of terrorism suspects arrayed against an accounting of the resources being marshaled to track them down, including sealed indictments and clandestine operations. U.S. officials said the database is designed to go beyond existing kill lists, mapping plans for the “disposition” of suspects beyond the reach of American drones.

24 posted on 10/26/2012 5:01:49 AM PDT by opentalk
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To: jwalsh07; All
It’s not collateral damage, there was no exigent circumstance

And you know this from what source? You know that the operator of the drone knew that one of the young men at that fire was an American citizen, and 16 years old? You know that no one else there was targeted? You know that the operators in that area just kill anyone they can, randomly?

Please let us know how you know these things. I would like to have access to such knowledge.

I am not saying that it is impossible. I know that crimes have been committed in the past and will be in the future. I want to know how you know that this is one of them.

25 posted on 10/26/2012 5:37:28 AM PDT by marktwain
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To: OneWingedShark
Now the US finds it a-ok to kill the son for the sins of the father.

Unto the seventh generation. The Kennedys and the Jihadis have a couple of more to go.

26 posted on 10/26/2012 8:13:14 AM PDT by JimRed (Excise the cancer before it kills us; feed &water the Tree of Liberty! TERM LIMITS, NOW & FOREVER!)
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To: JimRed

“Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor shall the children be put to death for their fathers; a person shall be put to death for his own sin.” – Deuteronomy 24:16


27 posted on 10/26/2012 8:46:46 AM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: MamaTexan

Madame, how the followers of the Moon God are dispatched to the fires of Hell concerns me not a wit.


28 posted on 10/26/2012 12:07:05 PM PDT by jmacusa (Political correctness is cultural Marxism. I'm not a Marxist.)
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To: jmacusa
So the Constitution is a meaningless document to you.

That's nice to know.

29 posted on 10/26/2012 12:11:27 PM PDT by MamaTexan (I am a Person as Created by the Laws of Nature, not a person as created by the laws of Man)
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To: marktwain
And you know this from what source?

I infer it from reports where unanamed Washington sources claimed he was 21 and thus a legitimate target. That was, of course, a lie he was 16 and US citizen.

You know that the operator of the drone knew that one of the young men at that fire was an American citizen, and 16 years old?

The operator of the drone is inconsequential to the killing of a 16 year old American citizen, he was following orders and had no personal knowledge of the targets nor should he. But your question here is simply bs and we both know it.

You know that no one else there was targeted?

I don't care who else was targeted. Neither the POTUS, you or anybody else in government has the power to decide they can kill 16 year old American citizens absent due process and justify it by saying he was not the target.

You know that the operators in that area just kill anyone they can, randomly?

Are you retarded? Operators don't decide who lives and who dies by drone. Obama does. How do I know that? I heard him say it.

You've got things all backwards pal. Neither I nor the family of this kid has to prove he wasn't collateral damage, the government has to prove that he was and that his death was an accident due to incompetence and/or poor intelligence. Obama and you can not just kill American citizens because you don't like them or their views and when American Presidents kill 16 year old American citizens not wanted for anything they damn well need to justify their actions and prove it accidental or be impeached.

30 posted on 10/26/2012 6:26:47 PM PDT by jwalsh07
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To: jwalsh07; All

jwalsh07 posted:

“You’ve got things all backwards pal. Neither I nor the family of this kid has to prove he wasn’t collateral damage, the government has to prove that he was and that his death was an accident due to incompetence and/or poor intelligence. Obama and you can not just kill American citizens because you don’t like them or their views and when American Presidents kill 16 year old American citizens not wanted for anything they damn well need to justify their actions and prove it accidental or be impeached.”

marktwain replies:

I would certainly like to have the administration explain what the strike was about. If this young man was a target, then it certainly should be justified. I do not trust this administration, but it seems highly unlikely that they would choose to kill a 16 year old American simply because they wanted to. Why would they do it? What is thier rational for killing him? They go to considerable trouble not to upset certain sensibilities.

It certainly seems plausible that he was collateral damage, but he may not have been. This administration is so secretive and arrogant that you could be right. I have not seen any evidence that he was directly targeted.

As for the legality of killing American citizens because they or their views are not liked, I certainly do not know if this 16 year old or his views were liked or not. We do know that he was on enemy territory consorting with enemies of the United States. Americans who war with America can certainly be killed, and warrants are not required beforehand. Just consider Americans who volunteered to fight with Nazi forces, or Americans who fought with the Japanese during WWII. Consider Americans who fought on both sides of the Civil war, or War of Northern agression, if you prefer. Consider Americans who were in Germany or Japan during our bombing of their cities.

You can argue that we are not at war. I say that we are, with a non-state actor of radical Islam. There is even precedent from the early days of the Republic. Thomas Jefferson did not obtain a declaration of war to fight the Barbary pirates, another Islamic group that attacked American citizens.


31 posted on 10/26/2012 8:03:34 PM PDT by marktwain
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To: MamaTexan

How dare you. To you the Constitution is a suicide pact that should protect those who take up arms to destroy it.


32 posted on 10/27/2012 10:01:00 AM PDT by jmacusa (Political correctness is cultural Marxism. I'm not a Marxist.)
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To: jmacusa
To you the Constitution is a suicide pact that should protect those who take up arms to destroy it.

No, but ignoring is!

It's a legal treaty between the States that delegates authority to the central government....and its authority MUST BE followed, or the entire document is meaningless.

Article I / Section 8 / Clause 11
To declare War.......

NOT 'pass a resolution'

NOT 'proclaim a police action'

declaration
n. 1) any statement made, particularly in writing. 2) a written statement made "under penalty of perjury" and signed by the declarant, which is the modern substitute for the more cumbersome affidavit, which requires swearing to its truth before a notary public.

resolution
n. a determination of policy of a corporation by the vote of its board of directors. Legislative bodies also pass resolutions, but they are often statements of policy, belief or appreciation, and not always enactment of statutes or ordinances.

-----------

The Constitution is full of LEGAL terms that the Founders intended to have REAL, LEGAL meaning. Are you saying the federal government is above the Law?

33 posted on 10/27/2012 10:30:07 AM PDT by MamaTexan (I am a Person as Created by the Laws of Nature, not a person as created by the laws of Man)
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To: MamaTexan
No, but ignoring it is!
34 posted on 10/27/2012 10:31:24 AM PDT by MamaTexan (I am a Person as Created by the Laws of Nature, not a person as created by the laws of Man)
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To: marktwain
Very good points
I view terrorism to be in the same legal category as piracy,
“enemies of all mankind”. A quote atributable to the “Goldeen Age of Piracy”, it was understood and accepted internationally that pirates could be killed on the spot if due process like admiralty courts was impractical. Captains of ships could even convene their own courts to administer capital punishment for piracy. By the way the laws still stand, even though we “civilized nations” no longer have the guts to apply them.
The problem today is, “one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter” the acceptance of terror as a war art form has muddied this. We can thank the IRA, Stern Gang, Irgun and later the Algerians who widely applied it to innocents for making it acceptable.


One thing I want to ask those who consider Al-Walaki a citizen. You do realize this means you accept birth right citizenships for non-citizens who just happen to come into the world because their non-citizens parents were visting!

This is an issue of dubious constitutionality, which as I understand it has never been properly tested in court.

If this stands this means that illegal immigrants who cross the border to drop a baby (and take advantage of generous medical welfare benefits!)to create a US citizen. Also note there is a lively trade in pregancy vacations for wealthy foreigners. They come here have their kid, and among the other maternity presents given them is a US citizenship with a future US passport. None of these people have any intention of being real US citizens, they are simply taking advantage of our laxity in interpreting how citizenship is obtained. Remember Al-Walaki’s parents were here for grad school when he was born. They went back to Somalia, Al-Walaki retunred to live off the fat of the Uncle - Uncle Sam. Again to go to school, I contend he never really intended to be a US citizen.

I fully support legal immigration, people who go to the trouble to do it right and go through the process of being a citizen deserve to be rewarded that distinction. Those who scam the system (yes do so because of our intellectual laziness on this!) don’t!

35 posted on 10/27/2012 10:38:44 AM PDT by Reily (l)
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To: marktwain

You misunderstand my views on radical Islam and the war. To be clear I believe that we are at war with radical Islam and that the battlefield is the Earth in it’s entirety. A jihadist comes up my hill with bad intentions he will go back down in a body bag. But that would be an exigent circumstance. A 16 year old strapped with explosives or carrying an AK in Afghanistan, Iraq or the bush of Vietnam is a legitimate target for any grunt.

A 16 year old American citizen is not guilty of the sins of the father in and of itself. This can never be true. This particular kid was on no wanted lists of any kind. And this particular POTUS would have no problem targeting and killing this kid if he saw political advantage to it. But the point here is that no POTUS has the power to target American citizens who are not wanted for anything and when 16 year old citizens are killed by drone an explanation is not optional. It is required.

As far as jihadists in general, my view is simple and antithetetical to Romney. I think we should kill them all but I don’t think we should kill the Constitution collaterally.


36 posted on 10/27/2012 4:28:50 PM PDT by jwalsh07
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To: MamaTexan
You're detracting from the real issue here. This American took up arms with an enemy bent on destroying our country. he got what he deserved. Have you chastised others on this thread who have the same opinion as myself?
37 posted on 10/27/2012 8:47:26 PM PDT by jmacusa (Political correctness is cultural Marxism. I'm not a Marxist.)
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To: jmacusa
You're detracting from the real issue here.

How so? I merely pointed out that a government that disregarded the procedures and dictates outlined for it to follow regarding a Declaration of War cannot be expected to regard the due process rights of an individual person as anything important.

-----

This American took up arms with an enemy bent on destroying our country. he got what he deserved.

I never said he didn't.

-----

Have you chastised others on this thread who have the same opinion as myself?

Are we now required to mete our our opinions on a fair and equitable basis in order to redistribute 'chastisement'?

LOL! No, I wasn't chastising anyone, nor picking on you in particular. Your post, however, was a perfect illustration between an actual, Constitutional War that WW II was and the more contemporary 'actions' that have been fought in the last 50 years.

I was also attempting to point out that so many people don't seem to get the total disconnect that a government that shall 'make no law' regarding religion has now 'resolved' to fight a military war against one.

The Founders wrote WHAT they did the WAY they did for a reason, and for all the lip-service given to the Constitution around here, you would thinks more of us would realize what it means.....and how upholding it for everyone else protects each and every one of us.

38 posted on 10/28/2012 4:28:36 AM PDT by MamaTexan (I am a Person as Created by the Laws of Nature, not a person as created by the laws of Man)
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To: MamaTexan

Madame, Islam has declared war on America and the West. How does one declare war on an amorphous entity that hides among many nations and none? You kill that enemy wherever you find it and whomever practices it. You want to extend Constitutional protections and rights to people bent on destroying them? The Constitution of The United States was written ,and paid in blood by and for Americans, not for everyone in the world and certainly not for a bunch of murderous, 7th. century nihilists bent on dragging the world back to the late Bronze Age. Islam is not a religion . It’s a plan for war. If you’d pay attention to the many who post here, informatively outlining just what ‘’The Religion of Peace’’ is, then you’d understand. You’ve a right to your opinion Madame but I find you to be a painfully sophomoric sot, well meaning but painfully ignorant of the nature of the enemy we face.


39 posted on 10/28/2012 12:22:22 PM PDT by jmacusa (Political correctness is cultural Marxism. I'm not a Marxist.)
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To: opentalk
According to Panetta and this article the decision to kill America citizens lies squarely in the hands of the community organizer.
40 posted on 10/28/2012 12:53:23 PM PDT by South40 ("Islam has a proud tradition of tolerance." - Barack Hussein Obama - Cairo, Egypt, June 4, 2009.)
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To: jmacusa
DO NOT presume to lecture, me sir. I no full well the nature of the enemy we face!

How does one declare war on an amorphous entity that hides among many nations and none?

One

nation

AT A TIME!

Do you have ANY idea how fast this crap would have stopped had we followed the Law and declare war on the country whose citizenship was held by 15 of the 19 terrorist that hit the WTC?

DO YOU?

Playing the factions against each other is not an answer. Training barbarians in order to 'help' them has resulted in Americans training other people to murder them. Arming these people against their enemies has REPEATEDLY proven futile, because suddenly we ARE their enemy.

This pattern is a documented fact, and its continual repetition has become the definition of insanity.

-----

The fact is we would not be wading through the situation we are to today had we turned Saudi Arabia into a parking lot, sent the message to the world that any attack on the US would result in the same for others......

and LEFT THESE PEOPLE to rot in the Hell-hole of their own making!

41 posted on 10/29/2012 6:21:24 AM PDT by MamaTexan (I am a Person as Created by the Laws of Nature, not a person as created by the laws of Man)
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To: MamaTexan

Lecture you? Madame, don’t flatter yourself, I wouldn’t waste my time. I must say however you had no compunction at jumping down my throat initially. Never ceases to amaze and irritate me the blithering hypocrisy some people spout from. Believe it or not you raging harpy I share your same loathing of the Muslim world. Or as I refer to them ‘’worthless Saracen bastards’’. I’m not in favor of providing them ANYTHING other than a swift and total nuclear death and turn every last one of them in America out on their ears over the borders north and south and into the sea! Now, good night and goodbye to you Madame!


42 posted on 10/29/2012 1:20:48 PM PDT by jmacusa (Political correctness is cultural Marxism. I'm not a Marxist.)
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