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What Would Bismarck Do?
American Conservative Union ^ | March 24, 2008 | William s.Lind

Posted on 04/11/2008 11:52:38 PM PDT by Bokababe

In the Balkans, 1914 is never far away.

There is an old saying that the problem with the Balkans is that they produce more history than they can consume locally. Events in, and over, the Serbian province of Kosovo may soon give this adage new relevance.

Last month, an Albanian government in Kosovo declared its independence from Serbia. That action was unhelpful, at best, for the future peace of the Balkans. Kosovo is the Serbs’ ancestral homeland, to which they remain emotionally attached. Serbian mothers sing lullabies to their babies about Kosovo, and men will fight for what their women love.

Never content to see a fire without pouring gasoline on it, the Bush administration promptly recognized the new “state” of Kosovo, as did some forgetful European countries. Russia, which may remember history too well, responded by announcing its support for Serbia. Within a week, Kosovo’s unilateral declaration of independence and the Great Powers’ response to it had set the stage for a classic 19th-century Balkan crisis. A few old fogies may recall that the last such crisis, in the summer of 1914, led to a certain amount of unpleasantness, not entirely contained within Balkan boundaries.

(Excerpt) Read more at amconmag.com ...


TOPICS: Editorial; Foreign Affairs; Russia; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: kosovo; russia; serbia

1 posted on 04/11/2008 11:52:38 PM PDT by Bokababe
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To: Bokababe

Great post.


2 posted on 04/12/2008 12:07:29 AM PDT by Kenny Bunk (GOP Plank: Double Domestic Crude Production. Increase refining capacity 50 percent)
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To: Bokababe
America under the direction of Clinton and Halfbright intiated a war on Serbia under false pretenses. Democrats (LBJ) did that before in Vietnam.

It will probably be up to America to clean up the mess later. It is Europe's turn though. Not only should Europe clean up its messes but owes us to clean up the Clinton administration's blunder.

3 posted on 04/12/2008 12:08:53 AM PDT by TheThinker (Capitalism is the natural result of a democratic government.)
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To: Bokababe; Hoplite
NATO’s bombing campaign, which Mrs. Albright expected would bring the Serbs to their knees in 72 hours, failed,...

I'm sure that Hoplite can explain that "failure."

4 posted on 04/12/2008 2:26:43 AM PDT by LjubivojeRadosavljevic
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To: LjubivojeRadosavljevic
1. What the hell were we doing getting into the Balkans in the first place?

2.Why did we support Muslim drug runners instead of Serbian Christians?

3. Now that the Russians are supporting the Serbs as they traditionally do, what happens next?

Somebody sort this out for me, please. I think that this is the end product of yet one more Clinton foreign policy screw up, with mad Madeline Albright as the arrogant, ignorant point person.

5 posted on 04/12/2008 3:37:59 AM PDT by Jimmy Valentine (DemocRATS - when they speak, they lie; when they are silent, they are stealing the American Dream)
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To: Jimmy Valentine
>3. Now that the Russians are supporting the Serbs as they traditionally do, what happens next?

Hopefully, a Russian or Serbian tank army rolls into Kosovo a month or so prior to the election in November.

6 posted on 04/12/2008 4:31:09 AM PDT by wendy1946
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To: Jimmy Valentine; Hoplite
Somebody sort this out for me, please.

Well, as I suggested before, ask Hoplite - he's the only person in this forum who (supposedly) has the intellectual capacity to answer all the your questions.

Ask him...because I'm getting tired of this.

7 posted on 04/12/2008 5:21:53 AM PDT by LjubivojeRadosavljevic
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To: LjubivojeRadosavljevic

Spassibo Bolshoi


8 posted on 04/12/2008 5:27:47 AM PDT by Jimmy Valentine (DemocRATS - when they speak, they lie; when they are silent, they are stealing the American Dream)
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To: Bokababe

Bismarck would not waste the bones of a single Prussian soldier for the Balkans. I don´t think that this is an option now, especially, since Prussia ceased to exist in 1945.


9 posted on 04/12/2008 5:27:54 AM PDT by Michael81Dus
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To: Michael81Dus
Prussia ceased to exist in 1945.

Are you sure you don't mean 1918?

10 posted on 04/12/2008 5:33:01 AM PDT by Rider on the Rain
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To: Rider on the Rain; Michael81Dus

Scratch that, Michael. Technically you are correct.


11 posted on 04/12/2008 5:35:32 AM PDT by Rider on the Rain
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To: Michael81Dus

Surely even Bismarck came to rue his role a peace maker at the Berlin Conference. True, European peace was brokered, but almost every participant, especially the Slavs cared less for peace than conquest, and forever blamed him and Germany for stopping the bloodletting. Bismarck should have followed his own advice and not become involved in the suicidal struggles of a bunch of “Sheep Stealers”.


12 posted on 04/12/2008 6:13:53 AM PDT by nkycincinnatikid
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To: Michael81Dus

Micheal , wasn’t that a “single Pommeranian grenadier”? And unlike Prussia, Pommerania has never been incorporated into Never-Neverland. Three Polish provinces preseve its name.


13 posted on 04/12/2008 7:28:46 AM PDT by nkycincinnatikid
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To: All

bump


14 posted on 04/12/2008 7:55:07 AM PDT by longtermmemmory (VOTE! http://www.senate.gov and http://www.house.gov)
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To: Jimmy Valentine
"1. What the hell were we doing getting into the Balkans in the first place?"

Some evidence from German sources says that the reason we went there was because "Eisenhower made a mistake by not setting up a US military base in the Balkans post-WWII" to threaten Russia with, so this was a correction of that "mistake". The fact that it required bombing innocent Christians for 78 straight days, illegally conquering territory from a country that never attacked us, violating every international law back to the 1648 Treaty of Westphalia and destabilizing the entire region in support of these Muslim narco-terrorists, was secondary to this objective.

2."Why did we support Muslim drug runners instead of Serbian Christians?"

Because the Muslim drug runners were willing to play ball with us on this, especially if we agreed to conquer a piece of territory for them. Also those Muslim drug runners poured $ Millions into the campaign coffers of our political candidates and into PR for the war.

3. "Now that the Russians are supporting the Serbs as they traditionally do, what happens next?"

Even ex-Ambassador to Serbia, William Montgomery, says that no one in the State Department has thought that far ahead. Foggy Bottom only thought in terms of getting Kosovo to declare "independence" and having some Western countries recognize it. They thought that "Kosovo recognition" would snowball on its own momentum and that Serbia & Russia would "stand aside" -- instead, Kosovo recognition looks like it is going to stop at about one-third of countries & never get UN recognition, and Serbia & Russia aren't taking it laying down. We have no game-plan for this. What happens next is anybody's guess.

If you are looking for sanity, morality or anything rational in our behavior other than unbridled hubris and sheer arrogance, you are unlikely to find it. The "humanitarian" descriptor was just a cover story for something that had no human consideration whatever.

And, oh -- by the way -- an independent Kosovo is economically inviable and we will be supporting it and its population forever.

15 posted on 04/12/2008 9:13:34 AM PDT by Bokababe ( http://www.savekosovo.org)
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To: nkycincinnatikid
"Bismarck should have followed his own advice and not become involved in the suicidal struggles of a bunch of “Sheep Stealers”."

LOL! Funny.

None of the major powers have ever gotten involved in the Balkans for any real reason that had anything to do with "the welfare of sheep-thieves" -- although that has often been the cover. It has always been about some major power becoming so full of themselves that they decide to expand their influence "eastward" (or if it's Russia, "westward") -- the most famous being the German "Drang Nach Osten" The Balkans is just the place that it happens, with one group played against the other over there. That's why the people hate each other in that region -- too many have groups been used as political tools of the Great Powers against each other there over the centuries.

16 posted on 04/12/2008 9:29:38 AM PDT by Bokababe ( http://www.savekosovo.org)
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To: joan; Smartass; zagor-te-nej; Lion in Winter; Honorary Serb; jb6; Incorrigible; DTA; vooch; ...

17 posted on 04/12/2008 9:59:52 AM PDT by Bokababe ( http://www.savekosovo.org)
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To: Bokababe; SJackson; Alouette

FYI.


18 posted on 04/12/2008 11:09:57 AM PDT by The Spirit Of Allegiance (Public Employees: Honor Your Oaths! Defend the Constitution from Enemies--Foreign and Domestic!)
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To: Bokababe

“...bombing innocent Christians for 78 straight days, illegally conquering territory from a country that never attacked us, violating every international law back to the 1648 Treaty of Westphalia and destabilizing the entire region in support of these Muslim narco-terrorists....”

Some would argue that the Clinton Administration’s unprovoked attack on a traditional friend like Serbia marked a major, thoroughly transforming change in American foreign policy which has had and will continue to have into the future, woeful consequences for this country. What is discouraging is that free and individualistic Americans, especially conservatives, would so fall in lock step behind these destructive, evil policies.


19 posted on 04/12/2008 11:10:15 AM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated)
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To: Bokababe

we will be supporting it and its population forever. “

i have a good solution: let’s bring them here.


20 posted on 04/12/2008 11:19:24 AM PDT by tired1 (responsibility without authority is slavery!)
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To: tired1
"we will be supporting it and its population forever. “

"i have a good solution: let’s bring them here."

We've been doing that for a while now. How do you think we got four of the "Fort Dix Six"?

In all fairness the results of Albanian immigration to the US have been mixed, but somewhat predictable -- the Christian ones tend to integrate (like the Belushis). The Muslims don't tend to do so well, and often get involved in crime and drugs. Then you get Albanian Mafia crime like the Albanian Mafia plot to assassinate Rudy Giuliani when he was a prosecutor.

But in Kosovo now, the Albanians are almost all Muslim. They have an economy less productive than most of Africa, an unemployment of over 50% and have the highest birthrate in Europe.

Are you sure that you want more of them here?

21 posted on 04/12/2008 12:30:12 PM PDT by Bokababe ( http://www.savekosovo.org)
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Comment #22 Removed by Moderator

To: Bokababe
I sincerely thank you for your cogent answers. They make me weep for my country.

I do not know how big the harvest will be from all that the Clintonoids did, But my guess it is going to be big and it will last us a long time.

23 posted on 04/12/2008 4:19:01 PM PDT by Jimmy Valentine (DemocRATS - when they speak, they lie; when they are silent, they are stealing the American Dream)
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To: Bokababe
Then, following the eternal Serbian narrative, came more betrayal and defeat. Russia, Serbia’s only Great Power supporter, pulled the rug from under the Serbs and demanded they yield. Why? History may some day find out, but as of now, we don’t know.

Schröder on Kosovo - "Moscow had for some time given the impression that it stood on the side of Belgrade out of a kind of pan-Slavic sentiment -- an alliance that the Serbian President Milosevic could use as a trump card. It was to the great credit of the German foreign ministry that it finally persuaded a hesitant Russia that it was in its own interest to withdraw its support for Belgrade."

When NATO bombed Serbia in the 1990s, Russia was too weak to respond. That is no longer the case. ...the boozy, corrupt Yeltsin has been replaced by the new Man of Steel, Vladimir Putin.

What delusional fantasy!! Yeltsin supported Serbia more than Putin! Yeltsin at least sent troops to Kosovo, Putin pulled them out and refuses to send them back!

Gerhard Schroeder, who orchestrated Russia's betrayal of the Serbs now works for Putin! Serbia is a victim of the new Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, they are just too blind to see what is happening right in front of their faces!

By the way, on a historical note, it was Bismarck's siding against the Russians at the Congress of Berlin which ensured World War I. It was Bismarck's machinations which created the alliances which led to World War I, so I think maybe he's not the best guy to look toward.

24 posted on 04/12/2008 6:40:54 PM PDT by Tailgunner Joe
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To: Tailgunner Joe

The alternative facing Russia at the time however was certain defeat in war with (at the least) the British, Austrian, and Ottoman Empires.
This is why Russia took the deal, why Bismarck got involved in the mess with the results you pointed out, and why they say no good deed remains unpunished.


25 posted on 04/12/2008 8:41:17 PM PDT by nkycincinnatikid
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To: Jimmy Valentine
Geopolitical realignment, and isolation of Russia, deprived them exits to Mediterranean and Black Sea.Montenegro, Albanian, Greece, Bulgaria, Rumania, ( Ukraine, Georgia next to join NATO) Turkey. Kosovo is a perfect peace of real estate for the new military base, location gives you perfect staging grounds to Africa and Middle East.

They are useful idiots, in this case they are not just moslems,they are Otomans, the worst enemies of Eastern Orthodox Christians.

Traditionally, Russians throughout history were always viewed as defenders of Eastern Orthodox Christians.

What next is a good question.

26 posted on 04/12/2008 9:54:21 PM PDT by King Lazar
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To: nkycincinnatikid

Yeah, it was a Pommeranian grenadier, but I wasn´t sure how to spell Pommern and “Grenadier” in English, so I chose a not-so specific description. Pommerania was part of Prussia, and a grendaier is a soldier. :-)


27 posted on 04/13/2008 6:42:23 AM PDT by Michael81Dus
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