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Loving Big Brother (London Police Shooting)
The New American ^ | 07.26.05 | William Norman Grigg

Posted on 07/26/2005 10:36:38 PM PDT by Coleus

Loving Big Brother
by William Norman Grigg
July 26, 2005
 

The killing of Jean Charles de Meneze by London police, who wrongly suspected Meneze of being a suicide bomber, demonstrated the folly of giving police a license to kill on the basis of suspicion. Yet some neoconservatives "love" this and other Big Brother policies.

The July 22 shooting death of Brazilian electrician Jean Charles de Menezes at the hands of plainclothes London police left Fox News commentator John Gibson swooning with admiration.

"I love the way the Brits have 10 million cameras sticking up the nose of every citizen no matter where they are, except in the loo [bathroom]," exulted the host of the Fox program "The Big Story." "What is also good is the Brit police tactics that we saw at work in the subway Friday morning. The tackle and kill team is incredible, if for no other reason than their bravery. Can you imagine the job of those cops? Tackle the guy wearing a vest bomb and hope your colleague is right behind with the gun to put five bullets in the noggin before he sets off the bomb."

The problem is, the Brazilian national didn’t have a bomb, wasn’t connected in any way to the terrorists responsible for recent attacks in London, was in the country legally, and hadn’t been involved in any illegal activities of any kind. Much of this was known at the time Gibson wrote his mash note to the British cops just hours after the event. Still, he continued, one has to admire "the cojones of those Brit cops to go after him like that…. Five in the noggin is fine. Don’t complain that sounds barbaric. We’re fighting barbaric."

Gibson, like many other neo-"conservative" media figures, is a nebbishy pencil-neck whose pipe-cleaner arms would snap like dry twigs if he were forced to perform a push-up. It’s tempting to say Gibson’s essay, riddled with unconvincing tough-guy slang, represents what Dr. Thomas Fleming calls "vicarious masculinity." More serious than Gibson’s man-crush on British counter-terrorism cops is his unbuttoned embrace of totalitarian police state tactics – a type of behavior becoming very common among Bush’s conservative followers.

The lethal tactics extolled by Gibson ("five in the noggin" first, ask questions later) were taught to British counter-terrorism police by Israel’s National Police (INP), and the Israeli Security Service, Shin Bet. Notes Canadian international affairs analyst Michel Chossudovsky: "The shoot to kill policy was undertaken under the auspices of `Operation Kratos,’ named after the mythical Spartan hero. It was carried out by the London Metropolitan's elite SO19 firearms unit often referred to as the Blue Berets…. The training of the S019 marksmen was patterned on that of Israel." According to The July 23 Scottish Daily Record, S019 had been briefed "by officers who had been to Israel to meet their counterparts there and pick up tips gleaned from the experience of dealing with Hamas bombers."

Chossudovsky also points out that "Israel has also collaborated in the training of members of the FBI and the LAPD." A report in the July 15 Houston Chronicle documents that "the combat-garbed men patrolling light rail stations and bus transit centers" in Texas, individuals who "look like soldiers, but their uniforms say POLICE" have also received specialized training by Israeli counter-terrorism specialists.

In Houston, officers of the Special Operations Response Team (SORT) consists of "16 Metro police officers and two sergeants [who have] trained with `experts from Israel’ as well as from the FBI, Transportation Security Administration and several U.S. transit agencies," reported the Chronicle. The team "was formed shortly after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks … but had not been deployed in public until the July 7 terrorist bombings of trains and a bus in London."

It’s reasonable to suspect that SORT-style teams are being prepared in other major cities across the U.S., presumably trained in the same "five in the noggin" rules of engagement that made Gibson’s heart beat ever so faster. And it’s both interesting and unsettling to wonder what other surprises of this sort will be unveiled next time a terrorist attack occurs in London, New York, or elsewhere.

Incidentally, while Israeli counter-terrorist specialists have been training local police in Great Britain and the U.S. back in the 1990s, Washington was lavishing similar attention on the "security" forces of Yasser Arafat’s regime. As The New American reported in 1997, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms disclosed that fact during a counter-terrorism seminar in Chicago.

Complicating things even further is the fact that Hamas – the terrorist group whose murderous depredations justified the "shoot-to-kill" tactics employed by the Israelis, and taught to British and (most likely) U.S. police – was essentially a creation of Israeli intelligence. "Israel and Hamas may currently be locked in deadly combat, but, according to several current and former U.S. intelligence officials, beginning in the late 1970s, Tel Aviv gave direct and indirect financial aid to Hamas over a period of years," reported United Press International in 2002. "Israel `aided Hamas directly -- the Israelis wanted to use it as a counterbalance to the PLO [Palestinian Liberation Organization],’ said Tony Cordesman, Middle East analyst for the Center for Strategic Studies."

It’s an old story, one captured in Frederic Bastiat’s despairing observation that governments increase their powers by creating the poison and the antidote in the same laboratory. The same governments supposedly protecting us from terrorism have long cultivated many of the same terrorists and terror organizations that now threaten us, leaving the public insecure and increasingly willing to surrender personal liberty in pursuit of safety.

And abetting this cynical power grab are purported journalists like John Gibson, who rather than confronting the corrupt exercise of power lecture the public about their duty to love Big Brother.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Government; News/Current Events; United Kingdom; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: banglist; bobbies; constitutionalrights; deathcultivation; donutwatch; england; execution; freedom; jbs; keystonecops; leosgonewild; liberty; london; londonattacked; patriotact; rights; subway; subwaysystem; terrorism; thenewamerican; tna; tonyblair; williamnormangrigg; yahoos
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Why didn't they arrest the guy when he came out of the house?

Meanwhile the second wave of bombers are laughing.

1 posted on 07/26/2005 10:36:38 PM PDT by Coleus
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To: Coleus

Wow! I thought I was cynical.


2 posted on 07/26/2005 10:44:48 PM PDT by Hoosier-Daddy (It's a fight to the death with Democrats.)
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To: Coleus

John Gibson is a frigging idiot.


3 posted on 07/26/2005 10:46:21 PM PDT by agitator (...And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark)
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To: Coleus

What is wrong with people? Bombs are going off killing hundreds of innocents all over the world and these morons are whining about the police trying to protect the citizens? Have we all gone MAD???? I feel like this is the real Twilight Zone!


4 posted on 07/26/2005 10:49:48 PM PDT by ladyinred (Here come the judges!)
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To: agitator

What???


5 posted on 07/26/2005 10:50:42 PM PDT by ladyinred (Here come the judges!)
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To: agitator
John Gibson is a frigging idiot.

I completely agree.

6 posted on 07/26/2005 10:52:22 PM PDT by RadioAstronomer (Senior member of Darwin Central)
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To: Coleus
"hadn't been involved in any illegal activities of any kind." I don't know about England but in America jumping a turn style is illegal, resisting arrest is illegal, failing to obey the direct commend of a LE officer is illegal. I've gotten a couple of wooden shampoos for the later two. Don't get me wrong I'm no fan of cops but this article is really just a hit piece on Israel, the London shooting is simply a launching point. By the way before you start Suspected bombers are always shot in the head in general and the left eye if possible in order to initiate immediate paralysis and prevent hand movements that could actuate a detonating device.
7 posted on 07/26/2005 10:53:42 PM PDT by kublia khan (absolute war brings total victory)
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To: Coleus

Gibson needs some sun. The Brits have the right idea and I think they were justified in shooting the guy.


8 posted on 07/26/2005 11:04:07 PM PDT by Jaysun (Democrats are motivated mainly and perhaps almost wholly on envy.)
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To: ladyinred

What???

Anybody that could be so happy about being under the kind of surveillance society that the Brits maintain is a frigging idiot. And that's not the only thing that makes him a frigging idiot, that's just the most recent.


9 posted on 07/26/2005 11:09:17 PM PDT by agitator (...And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark)
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To: agitator

Okay, if you say so.


10 posted on 07/26/2005 11:11:33 PM PDT by ladyinred (Here come the judges!)
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To: ladyinred

You asked, I said so :) Have a nice evening :)


11 posted on 07/26/2005 11:16:36 PM PDT by agitator (...And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark)
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To: ladyinred

Everyone is was laughing at that nut Madsen for calling FR, among other things, home to the John Birch Society and like clockwork the JBS newsletter is posted on FR.


12 posted on 07/26/2005 11:20:48 PM PDT by Texasforever
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To: RadioAstronomer
I completely agree.

Aye. I'll go along with that as well.

13 posted on 07/27/2005 12:08:42 AM PDT by Prodigal Son
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To: Coleus
>The lethal tactics extolled by Gibson ("five in the noggin" first, ask questions later) were taught to British >counter-terrorism police by Israel’s National Police (INP), and the Israeli Security Service, Shin Bet. Notes Canadian >international affairs analyst Michel Chossudovsky: "The shoot to kill policy was undertaken under the auspices of >`Operation Kratos,’ named after the mythical Spartan hero. It was carried out by the London Metropolitan's elite SO19 >firearms unit often referred to as the Blue Berets…. The training of the S019 marksmen was patterned on that of Israel." >According to The July 23 Scottish Daily Record, S019 had been briefed "by officers who had been to Israel to meet their >counterparts there and pick up tips gleaned from the experience of dealing with Hamas bombers."
>

"often referred to as the Blue Berets…"

Oh yeah ? By whom ?

"The training of the S019 marksmen"

The training of SO19 ...cops.... is deficient. They are always NDing each other or shooting the wrong guy. A couple of months back they shot a guy carrying a table leg wrapped up in a parcel because they thought it might be a shotgun. I think their last result was perhaps twenty years ago when an armed cop challenged three bank robbers, who failed to respond with sufficient speed and he shot all three of them.

The other cop departments who sometimes carry guns like the DPG are just as bad. A friend of mine said he spotted two DPGs outside the Isreali embassy talking to each other and the one holding the MP5 was in full-blown Rule 2 violation with the MP5 slung across his front and pointing right into the guts of the other cop.

Everyone was safer when all they had was a whistle.
14 posted on 07/27/2005 1:03:14 AM PDT by PzGr43
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To: kublia khan
.. By the way before you start Suspected bombers are always shot in the head in general and the left eye if possible ..

Nonsense..
Televised accounts of Israeli forces apprehending and assisting bombers in disarming their belts are existant and happened within the last 2 or 3 years..
A young boy, (2 in fact) were stopped and were not shot..

Newspaper and magazine articles as well as other press reports recount numerous bombers in Israel that are identified, and "talked" down.. Not shot..

The point of the article was that government(s) tend to be the "cause" of the problems in the first place..
Those same governments then "solve" the problem by eroding individual liberties..
The author was correct in the premise of his article..

As for jumping a turnstile, resisting arrest or failing to obey the direct command of a LE officer is concerned, while those acts may be illegal, only dire circumstance justifies use of deadly force..
Granted, the extremely tense situation in London contributed to this tragic shooting, but "suspicion" is still not the same as "I observed what appeared to be a bomb strapped to the suspect's waist.. "..
Not the same at all..

I will excuse the officer's over-reaction due to circumstance..
But I refuse to Justify It..
They made a mistake..
They were wrong, and a man died...

15 posted on 07/27/2005 2:02:04 AM PDT by Drammach (Freedom; not just a job, it's an adventure..)
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To: Jaysun
According to The July 23 Scottish Daily Record, S019 had been briefed "by officers who had been to Israel to meet their counterparts there and pick up tips gleaned from the experience of dealing with Hamas bombers."

Running towards a suspected suicide bomber is counter to self preservation instinct. These guys just want to go home and enjoy the company of loved ones at the end of the day. Putting five rounds in somebody's head would not be on any of their day planners.
16 posted on 07/27/2005 2:02:18 AM PDT by carumba
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To: carumba
According to The July 23 Scottish Daily Record, S019 had been briefed "by officers who had been to Israel to meet their counterparts there and pick up tips gleaned from the experience of dealing with Hamas bombers."

Running towards a suspected suicide bomber is counter to self preservation instinct. These guys just want to go home and enjoy the company of loved ones at the end of the day. Putting five rounds in somebody's head would not be on any of their day planners.


I could just be tired but I'm not following you here. Was that comment meant for me?
17 posted on 07/27/2005 2:19:01 AM PDT by Jaysun (Democrats are motivated mainly and perhaps almost wholly by envy.)
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To: ladyinred
I feel like this is the real Twilight Zone!

"Let's do the time warp again."

18 posted on 07/27/2005 2:19:55 AM PDT by Ciexyz (Let us always remember, the Lord is in control.)
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To: Coleus

Don't waste your time. I've been through these arguements on other forums, and these "neo-con" idiots are the type of fools who would sacrifice freedom for the illusion of security. Exactly like their Dim-rat counterparts. And to be honest, there is quite a bit bigotry here too. The fools keep talking about "arabic" looks and such BS.


19 posted on 07/27/2005 2:52:45 AM PDT by Clock King
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To: Coleus

Don't worry, Mark Steyn agreed that this shooting went too far as well. And he's a hellava more intelligent than some of the sheltered folks who just want to "kill 'em all and let God sort it out!" types.


20 posted on 07/27/2005 2:55:05 AM PDT by Clock King
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To: agitator

"John Gibson is a friggin idiot". I seriously doubt that.


21 posted on 07/27/2005 3:01:29 AM PDT by driftless ( For life-long happiness, learn how to play the accordion.)
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To: Drammach

"Newspaper and magazine articles as well as other press reports recount numerous bombers in Israel that are identified, and "talked" down.. Not shot.."

And newpaper and magazine articles also have reports of numerous bombers in Israel that were not 'talked down'. Any of those 'newpaper and magazine articles' tell the tale of 'talking down' a suicide bomber after jumping turnstiles and running on board a train?

If it were as easy as you postulate, why all we have to do is erect lots of loudspeakes playing soothing music and tapes of Israeli police 'talking down' suicide bombers. Wonder why the Israeli police haven't thought of that?


22 posted on 07/27/2005 4:01:00 AM PDT by DugwayDuke (Stupidity can be a self-correcting problem.)
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To: PzGr43

"Everyone was safer when all they had was a whistle."

And there were no suicide bombers on the tube.


23 posted on 07/27/2005 4:02:08 AM PDT by DugwayDuke (Stupidity can be a self-correcting problem.)
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To: Drammach

"The point of the article was that government(s) tend to be the "cause" of the problems in the first place..
Those same governments then "solve" the problem by eroding individual liberties..
The author was correct in the premise of his article.."

If the author was correct, then it should be easy to describe how 'government caused' the problem of suicide bombers.


24 posted on 07/27/2005 4:04:23 AM PDT by DugwayDuke (Stupidity can be a self-correcting problem.)
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To: Coleus

Self-defense is a libertarian value.

Or should be.


25 posted on 07/27/2005 4:05:47 AM PDT by Senator Goldwater
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To: Jaysun
I think they were justified in shooting the guy.

Really? Execution style? Especially after he was already thrown to the ground?

WOW!

26 posted on 07/27/2005 4:05:49 AM PDT by RadioAstronomer (Senior member of Darwin Central)
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To: driftless
I seriously doubt that.

After what I just read in his article, I don't.

27 posted on 07/27/2005 4:08:34 AM PDT by RadioAstronomer (Senior member of Darwin Central)
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To: Coleus
The killing of Jean Charles de Meneze by London police, who wrongly suspected Meneze of being a suicide bomber, demonstrated the folly of giving police a license to kill on the basis of suspicion. Yet some neoconservatives "love" this and other Big Brother policies.

Meneze was possibly only guilty of being a jackass at the wrong place and the wrong time. ("Wouldn't it be cool if I could panic some Brits by pretending to be another suicide bomber"?) But terrorism has a way of making knee jerks look downright sensible.

28 posted on 07/27/2005 4:12:01 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (No wonder the Southern Baptist Church threw Greer out: Only one god per church! [Ann Coulter])
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To: RadioAstronomer

And BTW, just for the record, I don't like the hit bits on the Israelis or the police in the article. (I still cannot justify in my mind the execution style killing)

It's the John Gibson piece that startled me the most.


29 posted on 07/27/2005 4:13:31 AM PDT by RadioAstronomer (Senior member of Darwin Central)
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To: PzGr43
A friend of mine said he spotted two DPGs outside the Isreali embassy talking to each other and the one holding the MP5 was in full-blown Rule 2 violation with the MP5 slung across his front and pointing right into the guts of the other cop.
Wow, now that's scary. Don't you just hate it when they violate Rule 2.
30 posted on 07/27/2005 4:17:42 AM PDT by oh8eleven (RVN '67-'68)
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To: Coleus

I wonder what part of "S T O P " he didn't understand?

Very simple....obey lawful orders and you won't get wacked.

Take off and run in a heavy overcoat when the temperature is in the 80's and EVERYONE is looking for that EXACT description, ignore orders to stop...Jumped a turnstile,etc...you are terminated............

Great Job MI 5 !!!!


31 posted on 07/27/2005 4:25:46 AM PDT by halfright (3 Days post Hanoi Jane....2200 Meeting of the band of brothers to piss on her grave...Semper Fi...)
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To: oh8eleven
>A friend of mine said he spotted two DPGs outside the >Israeli embassy talking to each other and the one holding >the MP5 was in full-blown Rule 2 violation with the MP5 >slung across his front and pointing right into the guts of >the other cop.

I wish he had taken a foto, then we could have done a spectacular "What's wrong with this picture ?"

It wasn't a casual careless muzzle-sweep. They had been stood there for about ten minutes, passing the time of day with each other.
32 posted on 07/27/2005 5:41:20 AM PDT by PzGr43
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To: PzGr43

You missed my point.
I guess I should have included sarcasm tags.


33 posted on 07/27/2005 7:38:31 AM PDT by oh8eleven (RVN '67-'68)
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To: ladyinred
Protect the citizens? they blew the head off of a Brazilian citizen sending his money back home to his family.

where where these yahoo, keystone cops, when the real terrorists were there on two different occasions, and why wasn't the Brazilian citizen arrested with his "suspicious coat" when he left the so-called house under surveillance.

and where are the pictures of the incident, surveillance cameras cover the entire subway system.
34 posted on 07/27/2005 9:53:12 AM PDT by Coleus (Roe v. Wade and Endangered Species Act both passed in 1973, Murder Babies/save trees, birds, algae)
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To: kublia khan
um, why wasn't this so-called terrorist, wearing his "suspicious coat", LOL, arrested when leaving this house which was supposedly under surveillance. Keystone cops at their best. They tried to be heroes and blew the brains out of an innocent man.
35 posted on 07/27/2005 9:58:02 AM PDT by Coleus (Roe v. Wade and Endangered Species Act both passed in 1973, Murder Babies/save trees, birds, algae)
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To: PzGr43
Everyone was safer when all they had was a whistle. >>

You can say that again. And why wasn't this so-called terrorist, wearing his suspicious coat, arrested when he left the "house" under surveillance? It just doesn't add up.
36 posted on 07/27/2005 9:59:51 AM PDT by Coleus (Roe v. Wade and Endangered Species Act both passed in 1973, Murder Babies/save trees, birds, algae)
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To: Clock King
these "neo-con" idiots are the type of fools who would sacrifice freedom for the illusion of security. Exactly like their Dim-rat counterparts. >>


"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."

Benjamin Franklin


all in the name of terrorism, right? Hey, lets add more pages to the Patriot Act, it's not large enough, I think the government, military and police need more power and take away more rights.
37 posted on 07/27/2005 10:04:12 AM PDT by Coleus (Roe v. Wade and Endangered Species Act both passed in 1973, Murder Babies/save trees, birds, algae)
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To: halfright
um, the problem is that the "police" stated that the house in which he exited was under surveillance and they saw this "terrorist" leave with his "suspicious coat" from said house.

Seems if they wanted to stop a terrorist they would have arrested him on a city street instead of the inside of the worlds busiest subway system. Not too smart, eh?

Yea, one deserves to have his brains blown out because he wore a "suspicious coat", LOL. Did it ever occur to you that while in the busiest subway system in the world that maybe he couldn't "hear" them say stop. I've been in the NYC subway and you can't hear a thing, the noise is deafening.

Where were these storm troopers when the real terrorists were in the subways? Cleaning out their weapons?

38 posted on 07/27/2005 10:09:33 AM PDT by Coleus (Roe v. Wade and Endangered Species Act both passed in 1973, Murder Babies/save trees, birds, algae)
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To: hedgetrimmer


39 posted on 07/27/2005 10:16:16 AM PDT by Coleus (Roe v. Wade and Endangered Species Act both passed in 1973, Murder Babies/save trees, birds, algae)
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To: Jaysun

Yes, even though the tie in was not that close.


40 posted on 07/27/2005 12:34:18 PM PDT by carumba
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To: DugwayDuke
And newpaper and magazine articles also have reports of numerous bombers in Israel that were not 'talked down'.

Wrong analogy..
Go back and read what I was responding to..

It was stated categorically that it was always the case.. shoot first, shoot for the head, shoot to kill..
Read what he said..

I merely countered that statement with fact.. Such is not the case.. Other methods are used..

The measures used ared dictated by the circumstances, one size does not fit all..

41 posted on 07/27/2005 4:00:09 PM PDT by Drammach (Freedom; not just a job, it's an adventure..)
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To: DugwayDuke
If the author was correct, then it should be easy to describe how 'government caused' the problem of suicide bombers.

He did so.. Read the article..

42 posted on 07/27/2005 4:02:34 PM PDT by Drammach (Freedom; not just a job, it's an adventure..)
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To: Drammach

Exactly where did the author describe how the British government caused these suicide bombers?


43 posted on 07/27/2005 5:58:44 PM PDT by DugwayDuke (Stupidity can be a self-correcting problem.)
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To: Drammach

"The measures used ared dictated by the circumstances, one size does not fit all.."

So what method do you propose that fits this situation, middle eastern male leaves a suspected terrorist abode, ignores orders to stop, attempts to board a passenger train, while wearing clothing that is more appropriate to hiding a bomb than the weather? In a city that has had eight suicide bomber attempts in two weeks?


44 posted on 07/27/2005 6:01:15 PM PDT by DugwayDuke (Stupidity can be a self-correcting problem.)
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To: Coleus
Who is this name calling, oh soooooooooooooooooo "macho" man, calling John Gibson a "pencil-neck" and worse? And what is THE NEW AMERICAN?

The second wave of non-suicide bombers in England are soiling their knickers and one of them is in goal;none of them are laughing.

And absolutely NONE of the recent events bear any resemblance to BIG BROTHER or "1984"! Anyone who thinks that this is so, should read the book.

45 posted on 07/27/2005 6:06:42 PM PDT by nopardons
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To: agitator

No, he isn't; but, you are.


46 posted on 07/27/2005 6:07:25 PM PDT by nopardons
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To: RadioAstronomer
Really? Execution style? Especially after he was already thrown to the ground?

WOW!


Yes. They had numerous reasons to believe he was a suicide bomber. I guess they could have simply killed him for the sport. You know, because they like doing that sort of thing.
47 posted on 07/27/2005 6:12:19 PM PDT by Jaysun (Democrats are motivated mainly and perhaps almost wholly by envy.)
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To: Coleus
Who was an ILLEGAL in England, who has overstayed his visa and running from the cops, who yelled STOP, over and over and over at him, during an all out terrorist attack on England.
48 posted on 07/27/2005 6:19:16 PM PDT by nopardons
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To: nopardons
This lady has the same opinion of you that I do
49 posted on 07/27/2005 7:18:11 PM PDT by agitator (...And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark)
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To: agitator

Your link doesn't work and you really don't want to know what my opinion of you is. ;^)


50 posted on 07/27/2005 7:24:57 PM PDT by nopardons
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