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Black holes 'do not exist'
Nature ^ | 03/31/05 | Philip Ball

Posted on 03/31/2005 4:41:46 PM PST by Michael_Michaelangelo

Black holes are staples of science fiction and many think astronomers have observed them indirectly. But according to a physicist at the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in California, these awesome breaches in space-time do not and indeed cannot exist.

Over the past few years, observations of the motions of galaxies have shown that some 70% the Universe seems to be composed of a strange 'dark energy' that is driving the Universe's accelerating expansion.

George Chapline thinks that the collapse of the massive stars, which was long believed to generate black holes, actually leads to the formation of stars that contain dark energy. "It's a near certainty that black holes don't exist," he claims.

Black holes are one of the most celebrated predictions of Einstein's general theory of relativity, which explains gravity as the warping of space-time caused by massive objects. The theory suggests that a sufficiently massive star, when it dies, will collapse under its own gravity to a single point.

But Einstein didn't believe in black holes, Chapline argues. "Unfortunately", he adds, "he couldn't articulate why." At the root of the problem is the other revolutionary theory of twentieth-century physics, which Einstein also helped to formulate: quantum mechanics.

(Excerpt) Read more at nature.com ...


TOPICS: Extended News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: artbell; blackholes; cosmology; cosmos; einstein; georgechapline; grayholes; quantummechanics; stephenhawking; stringtheory
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1 posted on 03/31/2005 4:41:46 PM PST by Michael_Michaelangelo
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To: silverleaf

cosmos ping


2 posted on 03/31/2005 4:43:25 PM PST by silverleaf (Fasten your seat belts- it's going to be a BUMPY ride.)
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To: Michael_Michaelangelo
Black holes do not exists?

Obviously, someone hasn't looked inside Barney Frank's head.

3 posted on 03/31/2005 4:45:02 PM PST by Fiat volvntas tva
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To: Michael_Michaelangelo

Well, they do exist because we can observe their effects. But can they "exist" the way we understand existence?

Probably not.

And isn't it nice to know that scientists are willing to admit that they don't know it all?


4 posted on 03/31/2005 4:47:10 PM PST by PeterFinn (The Holocaust was perfectly legal.)
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To: PeterFinn

Times are changin'. :)


5 posted on 03/31/2005 4:47:46 PM PST by Michael_Michaelangelo (The best theory is not ipso facto a good theory. Lots of links on my homepage...)
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To: Michael_Michaelangelo
Science just keeps screwing up the best science fiction. First they told me that laser-guns and explosions in space wouldn't make any noise. And that faster-than-light travel wasn't possible, and even near-light travel would screw up peoples' ages relative to each other. That you couldn't have gravity on a ship to let you walk around, etc. Now this?

What's next? No Klingons?

6 posted on 03/31/2005 4:48:15 PM PST by Dr. Frank fan
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To: Fiat volvntas tva
Obviously, someone hasn't looked inside Barney Frank's head.

Barney's head is very selective about what it "sucks in"!

7 posted on 03/31/2005 4:48:27 PM PST by Kimba
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To: Michael_Michaelangelo

Oh yeah? Well then where do our tax dollars go?


8 posted on 03/31/2005 4:49:40 PM PST by ElkGroveDan
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To: Michael_Michaelangelo
But Einstein didn't believe in black holes, Chapline argues.

Einstein also believed that "God doesn't play dice" when in fact The Old Guy is an inveterate gambler.

9 posted on 03/31/2005 4:50:05 PM PST by facedown (Armed in the Heartland)
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To: Michael_Michaelangelo

Black Holes suck!


10 posted on 03/31/2005 4:50:38 PM PST by punster
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To: Dr. Frank fan

If you ever had a long haired dog, you would be well aware that Klingon will always exist.


11 posted on 03/31/2005 4:51:34 PM PST by edeal
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To: Michael_Michaelangelo

Another recent theory is that black holes are essential to galaxy formation. So who is correct?


12 posted on 03/31/2005 4:52:24 PM PST by Straight Vermonter (Liberalism: The irrational fear of self reliance.)
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To: Michael_Michaelangelo

So black holes don't exist, we're just seeing something that looks and acts like a black hole would, except for utilizing a different mechanism?

No matter what, it still sucks.


13 posted on 03/31/2005 4:53:46 PM PST by ApplegateRanch (Only those without honor eat dead food, rather than making every meal a fight!)
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To: Michael_Michaelangelo

Well this would just throw out about 60 years of cosmology.. Jeez.


14 posted on 03/31/2005 4:54:19 PM PST by G32
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To: Michael_Michaelangelo
Sorry guys, but you'll have to resolve this one without me.

Every time I try to grasp quantum physics, event horizons, black holes and super-dense dark matter, my head starts to explode and I have to go find something I can deal with like digging a posthole or sorting my socks.

15 posted on 03/31/2005 4:54:52 PM PST by Publius6961 (The most abundant things in the universe are ignorance, stupidity and hydrogen)
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To: Michael_Michaelangelo
70% the Universe seems to be composed of a strange 'dark energy' that is driving the Universe's accelerating expansion.

I AM THE FATHER OF 70% OF YOU.

16 posted on 03/31/2005 4:58:19 PM PST by martin_fierro (< |:)~)
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To: Michael_Michaelangelo

yeah im not buying this. I need to see some equations and evidence before I believe any of this. I have a background in physics and I get the impression that he doesnt understand some aspects about general relativity. The problem with quantum mechanics at the boundary comes most likely from the fact that we have no theory of gravitational quantum mechanics. I've noticed that some physicists when they cant explain something like to say its because of dark matter/energy


17 posted on 03/31/2005 5:02:58 PM PST by the right side jedi
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To: PeterFinn
And isn't it nice to know that scientists are willing to admit that they don't know it all?

Yes it is, and you often see it with astronomers, who also have a little-kid-excited attitude lots of times. The anti-ID folks in the life sciences just don't seem to have the same curiosity and humility, but I guess being grim defenders of Western Civilization against the Creationist Theocrats doesn't leave much room for fun.
18 posted on 03/31/2005 5:03:29 PM PST by SalukiLawyer
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To: Michael_Michaelangelo
I'm shattered. I mean, when you can't put your faith in an object of zero dimension, infinite surface gravity and incalculable spin connected by an instantaneous link to another point in the universe, what CAN you put your faith in?
19 posted on 03/31/2005 5:04:04 PM PST by Starve The Beast (I used to be disgusted, but now I try to be amused)
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To: Michael_Michaelangelo

Of course black holes exist. That's where all of my money goes. Wait. That's taxes!


20 posted on 03/31/2005 5:07:04 PM PST by DakotaGator
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To: Michael_Michaelangelo

Your link doesn't appear to be working


21 posted on 03/31/2005 5:09:22 PM PST by neutrality
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To: neutrality

Actually it seems I just can't access nature.com for some reason


22 posted on 03/31/2005 5:10:14 PM PST by neutrality
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To: Dr. Frank fan
Science just keeps screwing up the best science fiction. First they told me that laser-guns and explosions in space wouldn't make any noise.

Niven's Law number 2:

Never fire a laser at a mirror.

And if you thought that laser-guns and explosions in space would make a noise then you haven't been paying attention to science fiction for about 30 years.

Remember the tag line to the first Alien movie (1979)?

23 posted on 03/31/2005 5:10:20 PM PST by Phsstpok ("When you don't know where you are, but you don't care, you're not lost, you're exploring.")
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Comment #24 Removed by Moderator

To: Straight Vermonter

Just another contractor from Lawrence Livermore posing as a National Laboratory and looking for more contract money.

A Nuclear Weapons Lab without any mission.


25 posted on 03/31/2005 5:12:38 PM PST by satan
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To: Michael_Michaelangelo
"It's a near certainty that black holes don't exist,"

Obviously the writer has never spent a spring here in Michigan and blown a tire and ruined his suspension hitting one of those non-existant black holes.........

26 posted on 03/31/2005 5:17:52 PM PST by Hot Tabasco (After 32 years of dealing with stupid people I still haven't earned the right to just shoot them.)
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To: Phsstpok
And if you thought that laser-guns and explosions in space would make a noise

You know - when I was, like, 5 years old :)

Remember the tag line to the first Alien movie (1979)?

Of course. That's what burst the bubble for me. "They CAN'T?" ;-)

27 posted on 03/31/2005 5:18:46 PM PST by Dr. Frank fan
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To: Publius6961
sorting my socks.

And where do you think all the missing socks go to? It's caused by dark energy, I'm telling you.

28 posted on 03/31/2005 5:20:27 PM PST by mhx
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To: printhead

Oprah ?


29 posted on 03/31/2005 5:25:42 PM PST by fieldmarshaldj (*Gregoire is French for Stealing an Election*)
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To: mhx
And where do you think all the missing socks go to?

Nice catch.
I was totally oblivious as to why a thread about black holes would make me think about socks...

30 posted on 03/31/2005 5:31:09 PM PST by Publius6961 (The most abundant things in the universe are ignorance, stupidity and hydrogen)
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To: Kimba
Barney's head is very selective about what it "sucks in"!

Putz comes to mind.

31 posted on 03/31/2005 5:51:09 PM PST by LoneRangerMassachusetts (Some say what's good for others, the others make the goods; it's the meddlers against the peddlers)
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To: Michael_Michaelangelo

George Chapline never met Hillary Clinton.


32 posted on 03/31/2005 6:03:06 PM PST by Bars4Bill
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Comment #33 Removed by Moderator

To: Fiat volvntas tva
Obviously, someone hasn't looked inside Barney Frank's head.

Not to mention his ___

34 posted on 03/31/2005 6:09:58 PM PST by JohnnyZ (“When you’re hungry, you eat; when you’re a frog, you leap; if you’re scared, get a dog.”)
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Comment #35 Removed by Moderator

Comment #36 Removed by Moderator

To: Michael_Michaelangelo

I don't know from this stuff, but when I look up at night, what I see are white holes. Whatever is out there is black, and there's a whole bunch of it. Except there are these little white holes in it in the shapes of bears and crabs and stuff. I think these might be primitive sky drawings done by asteroid men whose only tool was the "pin."


37 posted on 03/31/2005 6:20:22 PM PST by Nick Danger (You can stick a fork in the Mullahs -- they're done.)
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To: Michael_Michaelangelo

Free space trips tomorrow. Eat at Cosmos.


38 posted on 03/31/2005 6:23:26 PM PST by MaxMax (GOD BLESS AMERICA)
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To: Michael_Michaelangelo

The real question is:

Has he made this announcement on Art Bell or George Norry's show?

He is not an *official* wack job until then.


39 posted on 03/31/2005 6:24:51 PM PST by Personal Responsibility (3.0 x 10^8 M/sec. Its not just a good idea...its the Law)
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To: mhx

Socks are the larval form of wire coathangers. Every time a sock disappears from your washing machine, a wire coathanger appears in your closet. This is why, every six months or so, you have to grab a big handful of them and throw them out, lest they take over your closet.

The sock manufacturers do not want you to know this.

40 posted on 03/31/2005 6:25:07 PM PST by Nick Danger (You can stick a fork in the Mullahs -- they're done.)
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To: PeterFinn

And isn't it nice to know that scientists are willing to admit that they don't know it all?
---

Learn to say "I don't know." If used when appropriate, it will be often. - Donald Rumsfeld


41 posted on 03/31/2005 6:54:48 PM PST by traviskicks (http://www.neoperspectives.com/foundingoftheunitedstates.htm)
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To: Publius6961
Every time I try to grasp quantum physics, event horizons, black holes and super-dense dark matter, my head starts to explode and I have to go find something I can deal with like digging a posthole>/b> or sorting my socks.

Post-Hole Digger = "PhD".

So what don't you understand? :-)

Cheers!

42 posted on 03/31/2005 6:55:30 PM PST by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: the right side jedi
yeah im not buying this. I need to see some equations and evidence before I believe any of this. I have a background in physics and I get the impression that he doesnt understand some aspects........noticed that some physicists when they cant explain something like to say its because of dark matter/energy

Damn it... your forcing me to do this but...... ok


43 posted on 03/31/2005 7:02:30 PM PST by Dick Vomer (liberals suck......... but it depends on what your definition of the word "suck" is.)
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To: Dick Vomer

OK... had enough???


44 posted on 03/31/2005 7:03:14 PM PST by Dick Vomer (liberals suck......... but it depends on what your definition of the word "suck" is.)
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To: Michael_Michaelangelo
I'm halfway through "Parallel Worlds" by Michio Kaku, published in January 2005, and he writes of black holes in great detail. (wormholes and strings, too).
45 posted on 03/31/2005 7:04:04 PM PST by TailspinJim
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To: Dick Vomer

46 posted on 03/31/2005 7:05:24 PM PST by Dick Vomer (liberals suck......... but it depends on what your definition of the word "suck" is.)
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To: Dick Vomer
and just in case you want to see the rough draft of the black hole "not there" theory...

/sarcasm off roflmao

47 posted on 03/31/2005 7:07:17 PM PST by Dick Vomer (liberals suck......... but it depends on what your definition of the word "suck" is.)
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To: Publius6961

Use the duct tape if the head seems likely to explode. But wait! There was an explosion at a duct tape factory today. Don't know if they were product testing.


48 posted on 03/31/2005 7:08:15 PM PST by RightWhale (50 trillion sovereign cells working together in relative harmony)
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To: RightWhale

Check your calendars.


49 posted on 03/31/2005 7:15:25 PM PST by getsoutalive
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To: Dick Vomer

Oh, Yeah? Well, take this!
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/hframe.html


50 posted on 03/31/2005 7:15:53 PM PST by Right Wing Assault ("..this administration is planning a 'Right Wing Assault' on values and ideals.." - John Kerry)
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