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Bush says Muslims and Christians Worship Same God
CNN | 11/20/03

Posted on 11/20/2003 4:54:20 AM PST by truthandlife

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To: normy
Re: 646

Hi Normy,

After reading your last reply, it looks like you come right up to the water's edge to confess Christ's divinity - but you can't quite bring yourself to do so. In general, most of your comments regarding Christ are on the mark - but they seem a bit 'hedged':

"He was with the Father during creation."

Absolutely. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are One - so of course Christ was there.

John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

So - no problem with your statement that Christ was with the Father during the creation - because both Christ and the Father are part of the Godhead.

1 John 4;2-3 and 2 John 1;7 deal with confessing Christ is come in the flesh. I know Christ came in the flesh, on the earth he was a fleshly man, his power came in obedience to the Father. Even he said he could of his own self do nothing, right. So he had to be a man like you and me. To deny he was a man and make him a God-man is actually the spirit of anti-christ. I am not trying to offend you, really I am not, but that was what John said.

Oh don't worry about offending me - but worry about offending the Son (quick chance for you to re-read Psalm 2). As I mentioned earlier, I take back my use of the phrase, "God-man" - but 'God with us' (Immanuel - from Isaiah 7:14) or "God manifest in the flesh" (1 Timothy 3:16) will do...

The anti-Christs were those that denied that Jesus Christ had been made manifest in the flesh. There were heretics in those days (gnostics) that claimed the 'Christ' was purely spirit that inhabited the man - Jesus. I don't think this is what you are espousing (although I'm not quite sure), and its certainly not my position - which is simply as the Bible says: "God was manifest in the flesh", and "Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

I might not be logging on for awhile - so may God Bless you.

661 posted on 11/24/2003 9:27:09 PM PST by El Cid
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To: LadyDoc
LadyDoc, God Bless you.

You nailed it.
662 posted on 11/24/2003 9:33:26 PM PST by Luis Gonzalez (The Gift Is To See The Trout.)
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To: milan
Will a Jew who dies today go to Heaven, Hell, or somewhere else, according to Christian doctrine?
663 posted on 11/25/2003 1:05:09 AM PST by sakic
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To: sakic
>>Will a Jew who dies today go to Heaven, Hell, or somewhere else, according to Christian doctrine?<<

Answer depends on which Christian you ask.
664 posted on 11/25/2003 1:29:58 AM PST by Greg Weston
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To: Bobisalwaysright
It was meant to be funny and I should have put a sarcasm tag. For future reference; using being Catholic as a threat...just doesn't work.
665 posted on 11/25/2003 3:30:41 AM PST by milan
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To: sakic
Will a Jew who dies today go to Heaven, Hell, or somewhere else, according to Christian doctrine?

It isn't up to me to determine who goes to heaven or hell...thank goodness.

According to Christian doctrine, God makes those decisions.

666 posted on 11/25/2003 3:31:45 AM PST by milan
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To: Bobisalwaysright
I do belive that mine is the only. Buddhism is not right. Islam is not right. Failure to belive that Jesus is the only way is not right. Do you disagree?
667 posted on 11/25/2003 3:33:11 AM PST by milan
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To: El Cid
So I guess you would say in heaven there is one being on the throne. You would say Jesus got himself out of hell. Jesus upheld himself on the earth and Jesus did all those miracles of his on his own.

Jesus said he was going to his Father after the ressurection.

We know scripture says he is seated at the right hand of the Father. (Not just at the right hand, but seated, in a seat, at the right hand.)

When a person is in Hell they are cut off from God, like Jesus was but, Psalms 16:10,

For thou will not leave my soul in hell neither will thou suffer thy holy one to see corruption.

Jesus also stated he could of his own self do nothing.

Perhaps this is where we are missing each other, I know Jesus is in heaven and he is divine but he still gets his power from the Father. When he was on the earth he was not divine but a man.

One more question, in heaven will the Father or the Son have the scars in his hands and side? The Father will not because he was not crucified, but Jesus will.

668 posted on 11/25/2003 3:57:15 AM PST by normy
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To: Bobisalwaysright
You cannot prove that God is absolutely, without-a-doubt real.


Want me to prove God? Go look in a mirror. If you think that biological and physical piece of art was made by a bunch of mutations over millions of years, then there is no hope for you. Your existence proves God and the Bible says as much.

669 posted on 11/25/2003 4:48:10 AM PST by milan
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To: milan; Bobisalwaysright

Saint Paul disagrees with you in Romans, but then he is merely a Saint Paul, isn't he?

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

670 posted on 11/25/2003 5:01:29 AM PST by Cultural Jihad
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To: Cultural Jihad
How is what I said contrary to the scripture you posted?
671 posted on 11/25/2003 5:19:19 AM PST by milan
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To: milan
I thought Christian doctrine was quite explicit that unless you accept Jesus as Savior you are doomed to Hell.
672 posted on 11/25/2003 9:00:07 AM PST by sakic
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To: sakic
If you have never heard the name Jesus (say you live in a tribe in Africa) then what? Yes, if God has revealed Jesus to you, then there is no excuse. But there may be many circumstances that would not warrant eternal damnation for humans if they had not accepted Jesus...this is up to God. I assure you, a 3 year old who has not accepted Jesus will not go to hell. That isn't God's way. How He would determine who goes and who doesn't is up to Him. I am not even going to think I can rationalize the thoughts of God.

Do all Muslims go to hell? Heck, I don't know. It's not up to me, but I don't believe that all Muslims go to hell. Am I right? I don't know.

673 posted on 11/25/2003 9:32:22 AM PST by milan
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To: Kevin Curry; sinkspur
Kevin Curry wrote:
-- have you caught the same "I oppose for the sake of opposing" virus that tpaine and sinkspur have?

How ~wierd~ kevin. Here you are strirring up controversy, just "for the sake of opposing", and doing it the sneaky, nasty way, without even a ping those you defame. For shame.

You are quite demented. Get help.
674 posted on 11/26/2003 9:40:40 AM PST by tpaine (I'm trying to be 'Mr Nice Guy', but FRs flying monkey squad brings out the Rickenbacker in me.)
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To: punster
The use of Islam by Islamic terrorists is routinely dismissed by media figures and Islamic advocacy groups with hazy invocations of theological equivalence: There are violent passages in the Bible, too. And it's true: People of all religions have done terrible things. But none of these kinds of objections gets to the heart of the matter: Terrorists on a global scale today are using the Quran, not the Bible or the Bhagavad Gita or the Book of Mormon, to justify violence and to convince others that they should act violently or approve of violence.
---One Explosive Book

675 posted on 11/27/2003 1:30:11 AM PST by samtheman
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To: samtheman
I have never denied the terrorists are using the Koran for justification. The problem is they are using the violent passages for obtaining that justification, instead of using the passages that relate to better relations with others.

One of the good passages deals with "And ye shall mingle your lives with theirs...", which I would take as living at peace with others.

The terrorists are killing a large number of other Muslims as well as others. The terrorists are committing horrible crimes and probably committing the worst sin: Murdering and committing other atrocieties, then claiming they are doing it in the name of God.

I do enjoy discussing this with you, because you have made good points about the issues.

Have a Happy Thanksgiving.
676 posted on 11/27/2003 9:45:51 AM PST by punster
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To: punster
I think it's an important discussion. I don't know if this was posted anywhere else but look at this:

Here's a touching family portrait of Imam Fall at home with his son, and a possible person clad in a black sack, identified as his wife.

--- LittleGreenFootballs

677 posted on 11/28/2003 7:59:33 AM PST by samtheman
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To: samtheman
I think that does make a good point. I truly believe the Muslims will have to stop treating women as second class citizens. I know that not all of them do treat women so, and the rest of Islam needs to learn that it is good policy to recognize all the abilities that women have.

My main thrust in my arguments, was to make sure that we did not lump all muslims in the same bin as the ones who denigrate women, treating them as being only sex objects.
678 posted on 11/28/2003 3:21:25 PM PST by punster
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To: punster
And my point is that those who denigrate women and call for the killing of all non-Muslims are not errant mis-guided extremists, but the true followers of the true faith as it is expounded by the mainstream body of Muslim theocracy and scholarship on planet earth in the 21st century.

Those Muslims who do not denigrate women and do not call for holy war against non-muslims are apostates. They are, in fact, a form of unbeliever themselves.
679 posted on 11/29/2003 5:22:42 AM PST by samtheman
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To: punster
You find many moderate Muslim spokesmen and American-Muslim advocates in this country, who quote you the peaceful and tolerant verses, and no reference to the violent verses. . . . When you read Islamic theologians themselves . . . you find they actually confront this problem directly. . . . Some of the most respected thinkers in Islamic history say that when you come upon these kinds of disagreements -- where you see peace in one place and violence in the other -- you have to go with what was revealed last, that cancels out what was revealed before. Unfortunately, for the moderates, the violent verses were revealed later and they cancel out the peaceful ones -- but you won't hear this from the American Muslim advocacy groups. . . .
---Islam: a religion of peace?
680 posted on 11/29/2003 5:27:05 AM PST by samtheman
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