Skip to comments.End of the 75mm M4 Sherman
Posted on 08/11/2013 1:35:55 PM PDT by JerseyanExile
Myths about the role, and perceived anti-tank capability of the M4 Medium, continue to be pervasive. The idea that US tanks were not expected to be able to deal with any tanks that they may happen to come across just wont die, and is probably a reflection of the name of the US Tank Destroyer branch which is confusing to those who dont understand the doctrinal function of the TD. See the Can Openers article for a slightly more in-depth look.
We know that the idea of adding the 76mm to the M4 pre-dates the introduction of the German cats. We also know that even without the 76mm the US Army as a whole wasnt proven to be at any particular disadvantage. See US Guns, German Armor Part 2 . What is less well known, however, is the idea of totally replacing the 75mm tank was well entrenched long before the Normandy landings. In a nutshell, the long term plan was always to have two types of M4 in production: 76mm and 105mm.
The story starts even before of the USs entry into the war, in Sept of 1941, when they decided that they wanted to fit the 105mm and 3 guns to the M4. The latter was a tad heavy, so they went and developed the lighter-weight 76mm which was in testing by the following August. So confident were they that the 76mm would work that by mid August 1942, the 76mm tank was classified as a substitute standard (i.e. can be issued in place of 75mm tanks), long before tests were completed.
These initial tests basically involved fitting a 76mm gun to a basic M4, and was deemed a stop-gap measure. The Armored Force, however, wasnt overly impressed by the cramped and make-shift creation, and rejected it outright, saying that the [g]un mount and the turret arrangement is unsatisfactory principally for the reason that the gun mount employed in the quick fix turret does not provlde adequate space for the installation of slghting telescopes of suitable size and power to develop the full potential capabilities of the 76mrn gun.
There were other minor deficiencies noted in the report of April 1943, such as inadequate recoil mechanism (Fixed with stronger recoil piston rods) or an excessively weak elevation gear which made accurate laying impossible and precluded the completion of accuracy tests, or the travel lock blocking the drivers vision. Small stuff. However, Armored Force did conclude that development of the 76mm gun for the M4 be continued and expedited. Another recommendation was for inclusion of the latest developments in ammunition stowage to prevent ammunition fires in tank
Note that this is from the Armored Force Board report, not Ordnance Branch. It wasnt just Ordnance pushing for the development of the 76mm M4, and it wasnt Armored Force refusing to accept any need for the 76mm armed M4 until the lessons of Normandy beat it into them, contrary to popular belief. Incidentally, OCM 19984 of March 1943 also indicated that the Tank Destroyer Board was to test the M4A1 76mm, but I havent discovered any reports from that test or indications that the TD Board ever carried them out (Granted, I havent specifically looked for them either)
The response was fairly swift. By 03MAY43, the Ordnance Committee had revoked the substitute standard of the M4A1 76mm, and officially initiated development of the M4E6 series of tanks.
Ordnance were ahead of the game, though. General Barnes had verbally approved the idea of taking the turret of the T20 tank back in March, and putting it onto the M4. The E6, however, was going to be more than just a firepower upgrade, it was more of a mid-life tank design refinement. It would incorporate wet ammunition racks, a new front contour, thicker hull armour, new hatch designs, oil cooler design, relocated generator, and a slew of other enhancements.
With the headstart provided by General Barnes (And the generally more rapid pace of R&D in WWII than were used to today), the first of two M4E6 pilots had been delivered to Aberdeen for testing by the end of June 1943 (Now with a T23 turret). A number of tweaks were still required, but the final design was sorted out by September 1943, and mass production followed immediately thereafter.
M4E6. Note the early, narrow type HVSS suspension
A document dated 17 August 1943 lays out the plan pretty bluntly.
Discontinue mounting the 75mm gun and turret on rnedium tanks as soon as the production models thereof are so modified as to accommodate the 76 mm gun and turret, but in no event later than 15 December 1943 for the M4 and M4A1 models, and 15 January 1944 for the M1A2 and M4A3 models
This is not an indication of a desire to keep a mix of M4(75)s and M4(76)s for a mix of anti-infantry and anti-armour work. This is indication of an understanding of obsolescence of the 75mm and a desire to eventually eliminate it in favour of the 76mm. That said, a large meeting on 20SEP43 between the Army and tank manufacturers acknowledged that the use of 75mm, 76mm and 105mm M4 tanks would be used to provide a well-balanced team, but that was probably just an acceptance of the fact that they had already built thousands of M4s with 75mm guns and they may as well use them.
A letter from the manufacturing section on 11 Sept 1943 states the following actions would be carried out to meet the Army Supply Forces plan:
M4, M4A1: Mounting of 75mm gun and turret in these two tanks will be discontinued not later than 15 December 1943
M4A2: Mounting of 75mm gun and turret on Medium Tank M4A2 will be discontinued not later than 15 January 1944
M4A3: Manufacture terminates on or about 15 September [..] at Ford Motor Company, Detroit Michigan. No other facilities will produce this model tank during 1943. Manufacture by Detroit Tank Arsenal and Fisher Tank Arsenal will not start before 15 January 1944.
Although the instruction mandated that M4(75) tanks would cease production in the new year, Ordnance said nothing about stopping production of the hulls. The backlog was expected to be in the production of guns and turrets. As a result, Ordnance estimated that there could be between 1,220 and 2,344 M4 hulls sitting around waiting for turrets between 01Feb44 and 01Mar44.
There were some minor exceptions. A contract with Baldwin through the end of the year would see some 57 tanks cross into the 76mm zone. They were excluded, as were the M4A6s and M4A4 Rebuilds being produced by Detroit. Similarly the tail end of a large contract with Federal Machine for M4A2s, if there were any left to be produced after 15JAN43.
As far as Armored Force were concerned, they were all for the 76mm tanks. A letter dated 21st August 1943 from Armored Force HQ indicated that they wanted to send a couple of early production tanks to a combat theatre to verify that they were proven reliable in combat conditions, and as soon as this was done, to immediately build the first thousand to be allocated as follows:
One complete armoured division in a combat theatre, with 100% replacement tanks, totaling 336 tanks. One complete armoured division in the US, 168 tanks. One tank group in theatre, with 100% replacements: 318 tanks. One tank group in the US, 159 tanks.
Armored Forces thinking was that these 1,000 tanks be placed on the battlefield at the earliest possible date. Note that they're not looking at interspersing M4(76s) with the M4(75)s right now, they're considering fielding entire units of pure M4(76)s from the ground up.
Now, 1,000 tanks may seem like small change when they are churning out tens of thousands of tanks in the year, but it is important to note that Armored Force wasnt so worried about the type of 76mm tank in production, as long as they actually had a 76mm tank in production. A different letter points out that the 1,000 number was simply to tide Armored Force over until someone made a decision on the T20 or T23 series of tanks. If they were to be produced, contracting production of more M4E6s at that early date would be wasteful. On the other hand, if it seemed that neither T20 nor T23 were to be fielded, signing new contracts for additional M4E6s would be a very simple process. Either way, the days of the 75mm M4 Medium were numbered.
The new ammunition stowage configuration as prototyped in the M4E6
It is instructive to note the US Armys lack of evidentiary need for the 76mm gun: The program was started before anything that the 75mm couldnt take care of was met. Tiger had not yet been encountered. The first Panthers had shown up in Kursk only a few weeks before the order to cease 75mm production was made, Im not sure quite when the US Army received its first reports (The first publication by the US Army to mention Panther was the Tactical and Technical Trends or 04NOV1943) and it is likely that the decision was made before the US was aware of Panthers existence. And, of course, Armored Force wanted the gun.
This timeline and planning process basically further destroys all sorts of claptrap that keeps running around about people deciding the tanks didnt need a 76mm gun because of some supposed doctrine that they werent supposed to engage tanks, or a doctrinal desire to keep the 75mm around because of its anti-infantry utility. It kills the idea that the 76mm was a response to the German cats. The 76mm was the way of the future before the Italian campaign was launched, let alone the lessons of Normandy.
Now, why there were no M4(76s) to be found in the Normandy invasion is another matter, more related to logistical than availability issues and there were several failings to be found amongst the decision-makers there, but that is another issue entirely.
Unfortunately, the myths will persist.
Bump to treadheads list !
Former 19k/19d bump!
It seems like every time I see any old footage of WWII combat, there will be a Sherman in it somewhere.
We should get a FR clan together for World of Tanks...a free online game for ww2 tank nuts. Right now, im new but kicking ass in a T18 with a Derp gun ;)
I believe the first PzKfWgn MkVIs (Tiger 1) was encountered in the last months of the Tunisian Campaign Jan-May 1943, http://www.defensemedianetwork.com/stories/tigers-in-tunisia/
and again in Sicily. http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=187180 Thus we knew about them and captured a couple in Tunisia. How fast the study of them got back to the Armor Board, I don’t know, but it would have been fairly quickly.
Schwere Panzer-Abteilung 504 - sPzAbt. 504
The 504th was the second Tiger unit to be sent to Tunisia. It was issued 25 PzKpfw III plus two Panzerbefehlswagen Tiger Ausf.E in January, and 18 Tigers, comprising the battalion staff, workshop company, and 1st tank company arrived in Tunisia on 12 March 1943. The 2nd company remained in Sicily. The tank company had four platoons, each with two Tiger I tanks and two Pzkpw III support tanks. All of the sPzAbt. 504 Tigers were destroyed or captured. The surviving elements surrendered on 12 May 1943.
On 13 April 1943, the OKH ordered that six Tigers were to be stationed on Sicily and that until transferred to Tunisia, the 2.Kompanie/ schwere Panzer-Abteilung 504 was to be attached to PzAbt. 215 with a reinforced platoon of six Tigers being immediately shipped to Sicily. Altogether 17 Tigers gathered on Sicily: the original nine from 2. Kompanie of the 504th, two Tigers that had been used as replacements for the 501st in February, and the six Tigers issued in April 1943 for the 215th.
Attached to Panzer Division Herrmann Göring, the 17 Tigers under the 2. Kompanie of the 504th attacked the American landing zone on 11 July 1943, but were neutralized by naval gunfire. Within the first three days ten out of the 17 Tigers were destroyed to prevent capture and a further six Tigers were destroyed later for the same reason. The last Tiger was shipped back across the straits of Messina to Italy.
Thanks, I figured someone on FR would know.
NG 19k myself.
T34 most likely. Can’t tell if its a 76mm or 85mm gun
T34 most likely. Can’t tell if its a 76mm or 85mm gun
I was in Sagan Poland, and there were old barracks there from the Soviet occupation. They had tanks displayed in the front of what I believe was the main building. There was a Sherman there. It was next to a statue of one of the Polish generals who fought in WW II. So the first thought that came to mind was, he must have landed in Normandy or fought in Italy as a Tank Commander. WRONG! It seems we sent “thousands” of Shermans to Russia under lend lease. I later found a picture of a captured Sherman in Russia by the Italian troops. The tank I saw had a cupola that looked like a German Panther. I later learned, they were modified and they added an upgraded gun to it. There was a Russian Tank Division that used all Shermans.
That's as may be, but the US certainly had to be aware of the T-34 (sloped armor, diesel engine, higher muzzle velocity, slightly faster and with double the range of the Sherman) by late '41 or early '42. Should have given us some vague idea that the Germans were going to do their damndest to build something better.
Not JS. It is T34/85.85mm barrel.
My mistake..indeed JS2(josef stalin,2nd model).
“Only a few days after this picture was made, the tank and monument was blown up during the night. “
Nice photo.JS-2 had 122mm gun with 2 piece ammunition. Low rate of fire.
There is an interesting story about that monument.
My Father lived to be 90 but his last year was in a nursing home. At times he would be fairly normal and at other times he did not recognize his children.
Thinking it might jog his memory, I brought a bunch of his WWII pictures and was showing them to him. When he saw that tank he definitely seemed to have a lucid moment. He sort of laughed and said that it was blown up by the combat engineers.
Of course that might not mean a thing and I had never heard him say that before.
“He sort of laughed and said that it was blown up by the combat engineers.”
When was he in Berlin?
I am not sure when they got into Berlin but it must have not been too long after the Russians captured it. There was still rare fighting going on. I remember Daddy saying he once saw Russian soldiers throw a German boy from a rooftop.
I have noticed that in a lot of the photos they were still wearing their helmets and also were still carrying their rifles in a few. I also have one photo of their first meeting with Russians just outside Berlin. I do know their outfit was disbanded in Berlin and they were sent home in November of 1945.
Its a T-34/85 (85MM main gun)
“Man, I just ride ‘em. I don’t know what makes ‘em go.” - Oddball from KELLY’S HEROES.
Wow, that must have been an interesting time to be in Berlin! I’m sure SS-Werwolf (and their ilk) was still operating into 1946 and later, so they’re the most likely culprits.
Although it would be fun to think some renegade US Combat Engineers did the job...
Dad told me about he Sherman Zippos in the pacific.
Would burn up the snipers like no tomorrow.
He said they would receive sniper fire for hours, and foxhole it, when the Sherman would roll in, the japs would hear the squeaking tracks rolling along and run like hell. Then they would pick them off as they stood up from the brush.
I guess no one wants to be lit up like torch.
Another interesting fact.... kind of gruesome: he said burning bodies smell like pork, or a pig roast. But it still made him sick as hell.
The Panther had a long barreled 75 that was better than ours plus it had sloped armor(copied from the T34)which made it harder for our gun to penetrate. The Tiger, of course, had the much vaunted 88MM which could shoot through anything. The British took our M4 and put a 76MM into it and called it the firefly, they loved the M4 and even had kind things to say about the M3 since their tanks were woefully under gunned.
The M4 was a marvel of mechanical reliability, where as the German tanks were over engineered and prone to break downs(the newer tanks, the Panther and the Tiger, not the older MarkIII and MarkIV). Sorry if I repeated anything you said, most likely I did but I started typing before I noticed how detailed your article was. The M4 was a fine tank, it was prone to being shot to he** when up against Panthers and Tigers and had a hard time, in particular, knocking out Tigers. Rumor was it took 4 M4s to take down one Tiger. Since I wasn't there at the time I can't say for sure but when I was in the army,1959 to 1962, I had the opportunity to talk to many troopers who were there, I was in a Tank unit and there were still a lot of old timers who had fought the M4 during the war, they all said the 88MM of the Tiger and the long barreled 75MM of the Panther would take them out at a very long range, whereas the 75 of the M4 bounced off of the German tanks. The newer 76MM solved some of those problems as well as the new M26(IRC)with a 90MM gun, which came along late in the war.
I was a tank gunnery instructor at FT. Knox after my return from Vietnam as a tank commander on an M48A3 MBT, Tanks and M113 ACAVs provided excellent service as infantry support on the DMZ.
I spent much spare time in the Patton museum and was fascinated by the M4 cotroversy vis a vis German armor in WWII in NW Europe. You are mostly quite correct in your assesments, but the Brits installed their 17 pounder high velocity anti-tank gun into the M4. The bore diameter is close to the US 76MM, but the shot is heavier and delivers much more kinetic energy than did the US gun which fired the M93 HVAP shot anti tank round (APCR-T) The Sherman crews had to be within 300 yds of a Panther to assure frontal armor penetration with that gun.
The 17 pounder firing the SVDS round would penetrate over 6” of armor at 30 degrees of obliquity at 2000 yards, 7” at 1500 yards and over 8” at 500 yards, sufficient to crack the frontal glacis plate of a Mark V Panther most of the time.
The US put off plans to regun their inventory of M4s due to the M36 Tank Destroyers and the M26 Pershings coming on line with 90MM guns with even better performance than the 17 pounder.
BTW, the 3 diffent versions of the Firefly were the Sherman IIC, Sherman IVC and the Sherman VC.
I was stationed at Ayers Kaserne in Germany, 13th Cavalry, later changed to the 32nd Armor. we had M48A1s, they had the cupola but still had the gas engine. In the summer of 1961 I helped take delivery of some of the first M60s, very similar to the M48, better range finder, nicer gun.
We had a company of M103s and another of M41 Bulldog light tanks on our post also.The infantry had VTRs built on the M4 chassis . Our infantry companies received the new PCs before I left there and we got one of the new VTRs when we got the M60s. Our old VTR was an M51 but I can't recall what the new one was named. We didn't like it, the engine placement made it a bitch to drive on snow and ice, it kept wanting to spin out.
I was a Turret Mechanic.
My Father actually told me about Werewolves tho maybe not the same ones you are thinking about. He said the Germans would howl at night and there were stories going around of two American soldiers sleeping together in their shelter halves.
When one would awake to find his buddy dead and his throat slit. I am not sure that really happened but it is the kind of rumor which will spread.
I’m a little confused after reading the article. The headline refers to a 75mm gun. But the article writes about a 76mm gun. Are they the same, were there two separate guns, one 75mm and one 76mm?
Also limited ammo capacity, around 22 or 24 rounds is all that an JS-2 could carry.
Was your Dad in the Army. The Marines used the M4A2 with 2 GMC diesel engines. This was also the variant that made up the bulk of Lend Lease Sherman tank sent to the Soviet Union.
The M4 Sherman was originally equipped with a 75mm gun, that, while it performed reasonably well in North Africa, was found seriously wanting later in the war. A higher velocity 76mm weapon started to replace the older 75mm weapon, but this took far longer than expected, and Shermans in France and Italy found themselves coming up against Panthers and Tigers, against which the 75mm gun was simply inadequate. The article is about the end of 75mm gun and the switch to the 76mm.
Probably several division in the Red Army used the Sherman.
We sent them 4,100 M4A2 Sherman tanks. Roughly 2000 with 75mm guns and 2000 with the 76mm gun
At the end of 1942 the Soviets sent a T-34 and a KV-1
to the United States for familiarization with their designs.
I have never read the Report from the Aberdeen proving grounds that did the testing, but I have read a Russian report to higher authority summarizing the American report.
One of the more interesting comments in this summary was a atatement in the American report that “the designer of the air cleaners (on the T-34)should be tried for treason.” Overall the Aberdeen people were very impressed with the Soviet designs, but found Soviet engines and transmissions to be rather poorly manufactured when compared to American machinery.
Thanks but how does 1 mm make such a difference?
On it’s own, not that much. However, the construction of the two guns was radically different - for starters, the 75mm was only a 40 caliber gun, the 76mm 52. The barrel was almost twice as long, and the gun had an entirely new type of high-velocity shell.
As you may know, engines for Soviet tanks was basically from tractors. There is a true story about t-55/62 tanks that was taken by Israelis after Yom Kippur war(1973).In mid-70’s Israel asked Romania to sell Soviet tractors K-700/750.Romanians was very happy to get hard currency and sold few hundred of them. Soviets started to analyze the situation and tried to figure out why Israelis needed their tractors. When conclusion was reached it was too late. There was a need for engines/parts for T models and they are the same.
True and that’s one of the reasons why JS-2 was never used in tank to tank combat. Low rate of fire and limited ammo capacity.
There is countless pictures about Soviet Armored forces and pictures in general about WWII but I haven’t seen single one with Soviet tank crews on Shermans.
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