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(Vanity) Seeking Legal Advice Re. BSA Policy Change
none | Kinsman Redeemer

Posted on 08/05/2013 7:11:53 AM PDT by kinsman redeemer

My Boy Scout Troop is considering alternatives and possibilities for the future of the Troop - in light of the policy changes that will become effective in January.

Really, it is a matter of how we would react to changes that are likely to take place AFTER January.

I am looking for competent legal advice about how my Unit's Bylaws could be modified so that two points are clear:


TOPICS: Chit/Chat; Religion; Society
KEYWORDS: boyscouts; bsa; christians; gay; homosexualagenda; policy
For now, we are planning to continue with BSA and with the current charter: from a Biblically-based, fundamental church. We see no cause for leaving BSA as of January.

The moment that BSA policy changes cross either of two lines, we will leave the organization.

1. When the National Organization tells us who can/ can't be an adult leader, and

2. When the National Organization dictates what we can/ can't teach.

We hold a firm conviction that we must not turn away from opportunities to witness the Love of God, His plan of salvation for all sinners, and the inerrancy of God's Word.

We see the recent policy change as an OPPORTUNITY to show young men that we serve a loving God who is full of GRACE and MERCY.

I am looking for competent legal advice about what we could say in our Bylaws that would help protect the Unit from liability and at the same time declare our unyielding intent not to tolerate sin (not sinners).

If you must, please "Private Reply" me with any contact you might offer.

I need to speak with someone who is an expert in this particular area of the law.

I hope you will help.

1 posted on 08/05/2013 7:11:54 AM PDT by kinsman redeemer
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To: kinsman redeemer

You must know that there are new Scouting organizations springing up to accommodate troops that can’t stomach the BSA’s policies. Why not look into going with one of these organizations? The only real problem is that the BSA has lots of great real estate for camps, but if you can get past that issue, leave.


2 posted on 08/05/2013 7:17:43 AM PDT by ottbmare (the OTTB mare)
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To: ottbmare

We are looking/watching developments of “OnMyHonor.org”

Thanks.

We place a lot of value in the BSA legacy.

KR


3 posted on 08/05/2013 7:20:15 AM PDT by kinsman redeemer (The real enemy seeks to devour what is good.)
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To: kinsman redeemer

As a FORMER ASM (who left because of the policy change), allow me to point out that the BSA policy change has placed your Scout Master, ASMs and leaders in what most would perceive as an untenable position:

Either you support the BSA policy of acceptance of gays and the lifestyle as just a life choice,

OR

You remain true to the duty to God and proclaim the biblical principle that homosexuality is a sin and against God’s will.

Either the BSA policy is true, or God’s word is true. You can’t hold both at the same time.


4 posted on 08/05/2013 7:33:53 AM PDT by taxcontrol
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To: kinsman redeemer

If you need a lawyer, my advice is that you find a lawyer - face to face and in your area based on local recommendations.

As general advice, I would suggest keeping a low profile that does not provoke a lawsuit. Even if you win the lawsuit, you lose - you lose time with the kids, money that should be spent on activities with the kids, and focus on developing character. You’re better off with an informal, unwritten policy. You’re better off turning away the new volunteer and his “partner” because you already have a full slate of Assistant Scoutmasters than because of something the perverts will represent as discriminating based on sexual orientation. You’re better off turning away the 16 y/o boy who wants to join as a Scout and talk about sex with the younger boys because premarital sex is not an appropriate BSA topic than because he “happens” to be discussing gay sex.

This is just my opinion, but I hope you will give it due consideration. Everything is limited, even time, and it may be better to dodge this fight.


5 posted on 08/05/2013 7:38:52 AM PDT by Pollster1 ("Shall not be infringed" is unambiguous.)
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To: ottbmare

I have a 3 acre plot of land on the bank of a creek and woods I would be happy to allow any troop to use as a campground free of charge.


6 posted on 08/05/2013 7:45:32 AM PDT by Mr. K (Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics, and then Democrat Talking Points.)
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To: kinsman redeemer

One possible answer to the Boy Scout dilemma is for us to (repulsive as it is) act more liberal.

By this, I mean that we can lie about our selection of leaders. (”We didn’t reject Bawny Fwank because he boinks our kids, we rejected him because he has the IQ of a slime mold and the morals of mbnbc employees.”)

We can lie about reasons for terminating leaders. (”We fired Mr Fudgepack because we found him using politically incorrect language...and he actually listened to Rush.”)

We can lie in court if sued. (”I cannot recall, and besides, what difference does it make?”)

After all, lying is the centerstone of liberalism.

Let’s use it.

Really.


7 posted on 08/05/2013 8:01:04 AM PDT by Da Coyote
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To: ottbmare

The issue I see the OP wishes to address is fighting for right vs seeking the path of least resistance.
Fights are by their nature messy and expensive, there is considerable risk of an adverse outcome as well.
More folks need to step up like the OP. While the risk is great theme reward is more liberty. (What our founders went for, vs freedom ie liberty’s byproduct)


8 posted on 08/05/2013 9:23:55 AM PDT by ClockDoc (George)
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To: 17th Miss Regt; 1riot1ranger; 2001convSVT; 2banana; 3catsanadog; 50sDad; Abby4116; ...
Ping!


FReepmail Albion Wilde to be added or deleted from the Boy Scouts pinglist.

9 posted on 08/05/2013 9:31:22 AM PDT by Albion Wilde ("Remember... the first revolutionary was Satan."--Russian Orthodox Archpriest Dmitry Smirnov)
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To: kinsman redeemer

Our unit just found out we’re losing our Chartered Org. (evangelical church) because of the policy change. Essentially, their position is that supporting any BSA organization is supporting the pro-sodomites at National and they can’t.

IANAL, but our unit is approaching this dilemma from a behavorial point of view.

No sexual activity/activism of any kind (hetero or homo) will be tolerated. It is not in keeping with (what’s left of) Scouting’s values and disciplinary action up to expulsion is a remedy for failing to comply with the standards.

As for me, I see some of our boys through Philmont next summer and then I’m out.

I will not tacitly or implicitly endorse or condone National’s policy or their board members by my continued participation.

Best of luck to you.


10 posted on 08/05/2013 9:55:43 AM PDT by SZonian (Throwing our allegiances to political parties in the long run gave away our liberty.)
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To: kinsman redeemer

Stick with hate the sin, love the sinner and you can’t go wrong.


11 posted on 08/05/2013 10:00:41 AM PDT by Eva (B Obama is to Trayvon Martin as Al Sharpton is to Tawana Brawley)
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To: kinsman redeemer

1. When the National Organization tells us who can/ can’t be an adult leader, and

2. When the National Organization dictates what we can/ can’t teach.

The BSA already does both. Adult Leaders must be trained to BSA standards or they cannot be leaders. They also dictate how merit badges are taught.


12 posted on 08/05/2013 10:15:32 AM PDT by AppyPappy (Obama: What did I not know and when did I not know it?)
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To: kinsman redeemer
IMHO...

BSA has regional activities. You can't dictate to other troops who their leaders are. The boys in your troop are increasingly being placed at risk by staying in the BSA.

The boys in your troop will know that your troop's worldview is Scriptural and the national BSA worldview is anti-Scriptural - and yet the parents of your troop refused to separate themselves from the unscriptural national BSA.

Unless you are trying to change BSA national "from within" to get it to mend its ways (which is not the thing to do with one's children), your troop staying in BSA reeks of placing BSA "tradition" and "legacy" over and above Scripture.

My experience has shown me that parents love the idea of uniforms, honors and fun for their children. It's the syndrome of "I don't just want my kid to learn to play the trumpet, I want him to be in a band with uniforms with all the other kids, go to competitions, win trophies and take fun trips with the band". It would be oh so boring to sit at home and practice the trumpet under the tutelage of a competitent instructor, and then play in some informal groups composed of the instructor's students and other talented people from around town. No uniforms. No trips. No fun, other than the fun of playing music.

We hold a firm conviction that we must not turn away from opportunities to witness the Love of God, His plan of salvation for all sinners, and the inerrancy of God's Word.

There's no need to join a heathen organization in order to witness to its members. If an organization you are in turns heathen, then it is time to exit that organization.

Are you sure you're not staying in for purely sentimental reasons.

Everything you're "teaching" the boys can be taught outside of BSA. There's no law of physics saying that what BSA teaches can only be taught by BSA and only while boys are wearing green uniforms.

The Bible is quite clear that even if our own family is heathen and rejects us for our Christian faith - then we are supposed to live with that rejection; if our family refuses to speak to us because of our faith, we are to follow Christ. If you find out your best friend - whom you knew from your childhood - is a pedophile, you can't keep allowing your best friend to socialize with your children. If you find yourself and your children belonging to an organization that might harbor pedophiles, you need to get you and your children out of that organization.

Abandon the technicalities of US and State Law regarding this, abandon trying to find a way to avoid legal problems of staying in the BSA, which you are doing just to preserve your love of the tradition of the BSA. No matter how good your lawyer, the sodomite lobby will be always gunning for you, and your efforts could end up in a disastrous situation.

You'll feel so much better once you let the BSA go and can simply set about doing what you want to do for the boys and do it in a Scriptural manner.

IMHO !
13 posted on 08/05/2013 10:16:04 AM PDT by PieterCasparzen (We have to fix things ourselves)
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To: Da Coyote
"lying is the centerstone of liberalism.

Let’s use it.

Really."

Is that a rooster I hear crowing ?

14 posted on 08/05/2013 10:19:29 AM PDT by SENTINEL (Kneel down to God. Stand up to tyrants. STICK TO YOUR GUNS !)
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To: kinsman redeemer

There are some that unlike you puffed up and have made a knee jerk reaction and quit BSA.

The chartered institution must make the decision to leave BSA and flounder or stick it out and see how things progress. You will be told that there are other organizations being formed blah blah but that is pie in the sky.

If you have a good solid troop with strong leadership jumping off the horse into the river is a poor choice


15 posted on 08/05/2013 10:26:14 AM PDT by bert ((K.E. N.P. N.C. +12 ..... Travon... Felony assault and battery hate crime)
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To: kinsman redeemer

Making pink underwear a mandatory part of the uniform?


16 posted on 08/05/2013 10:28:07 AM PDT by Jack Hammer (American)
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To: bert
Couldn't disagree more!

My Son pulled him self out if Scouts. His reason, "How can a scout be morally straight and be gay?" He has zero interest in being the next tent mate for a gay scout. His troop will likely not have a gay scout, or gay leader in the near future, but he is stuck on his moral values and I am not going to change his mind. (by the way he is 12 and loved scouts)

BSA has a hard enough time controlling perverts, even with the mandatory youth protection classes we all have had to take. It will only get worse in the future.

17 posted on 08/05/2013 11:07:22 AM PDT by DYngbld (I have read the back of the Book and we WIN!!!! (this post approved by the NSA))
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To: kinsman redeemer
Your unique unit by-laws won't help you keep out undesirable scouts. If open homosexuals are determined to join your unit as youth members, they must be admitted. If a scout has homosexual parents/guardians, for the time being, they can be excluded from volunteering with the unit. The conventional thinking, at the moment, is that BSA National will buckle within 2 years to the homosexual lobby and permit open homosexual adults to volunteer at all levels.

For those who advocate hate the sin and love the sinner, how do you broach counselling with a scout who has same-sex attraction tendencies without including a discussion on sex which is verbotten by BSA National? Just look at what happened to Exodus International this year. It crashed and burned after 38 years of ministry.

Yes, those who chose to exit BSA will be leaving an excellent and established program. However, there are options which have been covered exhaustively here on FR. Yes, it will be tough slogging, but then that which is deemed worthwhile, has always been an uphill climb. It is time to put on our big boy pants.

18 posted on 08/05/2013 12:12:44 PM PDT by MacNaughton
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To: kinsman redeemer

We are in the process of re-writing our by-laws in a similar way. It appears, based on BSA published docs that the chartering organization is the one who gets to make the call on this issue, regardless of what the BSA may do.

For that reason we are having the official church body (board of elders or whatever name your local group goes under) require that we submit or by-laws to them as a condition of renewing the charter.

I’m not lawyer, but that really looks like it gives some protection. In the meantime, it may only be treading water until BSA grants the okay for homosexual leadership, at which point we will probably move to something like the OnMyHonor.net group.

This is from Boy Scout Publication 522-023_WB.pdf, page 9
Available here: www.scouting.org/filestore/membership/pdf/522-023_WB.pdf

Chartered Organization and Council Responsibilities
The chartered organization agrees to:
• Conduct the Scouting program according to its own policies and guidelines, as well
as those of the Boy Scouts of America.
• Include Scouting as part of its overall program for youth and families.
• Appoint a chartered organization representative (COR). This person will serve as a
member of the unit Key 3, will be a member of the organization, and will coordinate
all Scout unit operations within it. The chartered organization head or chartered
organization representative must approve all leader applications to ensure that the
individuals meet the organization’s standards as well as the standards of leadership
of the Boy Scouts of America.
• Select an organizing committee (minimum of three) of parents and members of the
chartered organization who will assist in the selection of leaders.
• Provide adequate facilities for the unit(s) to meet on a regular schedule with time and
place reserved.
• Encourage the unit(s) to participate in outdoor activities and all programs of the council.
The council agrees to:
• Respect the aims and objectives of the organization and offer the resources of Scouting
to help meet those objectives.
• Provide year-round training, service, and program resources to the organization and
its unit(s).
• Provide training and support for the chartered organization representative as the primary
communication link between the organization and the BSA.
• Provide techniques and methods for selecting quality unit leaders and then share in the
approval process of those leaders.
• Provide primary general liability insurance to cover the chartered organization, its board,
officers, chartered organization representative, and employees against all personal
liability judgments. This insurance includes attorneys’ fees and court costs, as well as
any judgment brought against the individual or organization. Unit leaders are covered in
excess of any personal coverage they might have, or, if there is no personal coverage,
the BSA insurance immediately picks them up on a primary basis. Vehicles owned by
the chartered organization and loaned to the unit will be covered on an excess basis
for the chartered organization’s benefit.
• Provide camping facilities, a service center, and a full-time professional staff to assist the
organization in every way possible.
For information about training the chartered organization representative, go to www.scouting.
org/scoutsource/Media/Relationships/TrainingtheCOR.

I wouldn’t call our approach ironclad, but we are largely just buying time till the other shoe falls and there is a viable alternative to jump to.

Hope that helps.


19 posted on 08/05/2013 12:48:52 PM PDT by newheart (The worst thing the Left ever did was to convince the world it was not a religion.)
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To: newheart
Thank you very much for your response!

Along the way, I will be interested in seeing if BSA makes any changes to the YPT after January 1- especially these lines (from the current training):

“All persons involved in Scouting shall report to local authorities any good faith suspicion or belief that any child is or has been physically or sexually abused, physical or emotionally neglected, exposed to any form of violence or threat, exposed to any form of sexual exploitation including the possession, manufacture, or distribution of child pornography, online solicitation, enticement, or showing of obscene material. No person may abdicate this reporting responsibility to any other person.” (emphasis mine)

20 posted on 08/05/2013 1:39:22 PM PDT by kinsman redeemer (The real enemy seeks to devour what is good.)
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To: kinsman redeemer

It looks like our Chartered Organization is going to decline their renewal. That leaves us a choice to disband, find another troop to join en masse or find another organization.

All options are on the table. Me and another troop leader are attending the On My Honor Coalition convention next month in Nashville.

One scout, my son is pushing to complete Eagle before January. I have another son who can probably be done in 6 months. We may keep him in BSA at some other troop just till he finishes since he’s so close. None of the other boys are very close.

The other option is to stay active until BSA announces homosexual leaders are allowed or until they try to make us change our policy. On that day, we turn in our charter and wave goodbye.

It’s a hard decision. One of the hardest ever because there is no ironclad answer.


21 posted on 08/05/2013 2:12:27 PM PDT by cyclotic (Hey BSA-NOT IN MY TROOP)
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To: kinsman redeemer
Something that might interest you: Key Differences the BSA and the New Youth Adventure Program
22 posted on 08/05/2013 4:58:28 PM PDT by upchuck (To the faceless, jack-booted government bureaucrat who just scanned this post: SCREW YOU!)
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To: DYngbld; bert

“Couldn’t disagree more! “

I simply do not get any sane, straight, God-fearing Freeper willing to allow his son, or other boys to join an organization that allows homos ready to rape on the next young kid.


23 posted on 08/05/2013 7:33:45 PM PDT by max americana (fired liberals in our company after the election, & laughed while they cried (true story))
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To: bert

I’m not “puffed up” nor did I react in a “knee jerk” fashion.

The BSA doubled down on stupid, in the face of OVERWHELMING opposition to the change. They are the ones who told the rest of us to conform to their values or we’re welcome to leave.

So, we’re leaving...your constant bashing of FReepers over this topic tells me that courteous, kind and friendly, even towards those who hold opposing views to yours, are values that appear to have missed their mark with you.

The BSA rejected social conservatism, Duty to God, morally straight and clean in the name of political correctness, aka cultural marxism. Any conservative worth their salt knows what to do with this, reject it out of hand. To continue to expose our children to this dogma is a danger and a failure to exercise proper authority and responsibility to our charges.

That you continue to bash FReeper Scouters who are leaving or who are troubled and in dire dilemmas over this decision says alot. And it ain’t good.


24 posted on 08/05/2013 9:26:04 PM PDT by SZonian (Throwing our allegiances to political parties in the long run gave away our liberty.)
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To: kinsman redeemer

“Legacy” is meaningless after the trainwreck


25 posted on 08/05/2013 9:43:27 PM PDT by GeronL
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To: SZonian

How about take your Scout Troop independent?

Just become SCOUT TROOP 122 with no affiliation to the BSA, let the boys wear jeans and a button up shirt.


26 posted on 08/05/2013 9:47:08 PM PDT by GeronL
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To: newheart

Fact is BSA will not stop moving in that direction. Look at the UK where the boys can have sex in the tents. It is heading in that direction.


27 posted on 08/05/2013 9:54:24 PM PDT by GeronL
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To: cyclotic

or just create your own independent organization


28 posted on 08/05/2013 9:55:04 PM PDT by GeronL
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To: kinsman redeemer
For now, we are planning to continue with BSA and with the current charter: from a Biblically-based, fundamental church. We see no cause for leaving BSA as of January.

My question is, why would a "Biblically-based, fundamental church" continue to charter a BSA troop or pack?

My 9 year old was in a pack chartered by a Presbyterian PCA church and they disbanded the pack.

On your second "line", I think they have already crossed it. You will no longer be able to teach the Biblical truth about homosexuality. You will no longer be able to teach that "morally straight" excludes homosexual acts. At best, you will have to shut your mouth, at worst, you will have to teach acceptance of it. Remember, the new policy is NOT "don't ask, don't tell". It is now acceptance and tolerance of open, in-your-face homosexuality in your troop.

IMHO, it's time to pull the plug on the BSA. This change was an "inside job". They had a Supreme Court ruling to allow them to keep things as they were. It is said that a fish rots from the head down. BSA's head is rotten and it will just get worse. There is no longer any protection to keep homosexual adults out since traditional morality with regard to homosexuality is no longer a "core value" of the BSA.

29 posted on 08/06/2013 7:37:42 AM PDT by A. Patriot ("I'm not a Republican, I'm a Conservative.")
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To: GeronL; SZonian
26 How about take your Scout Troop independent? Just become SCOUT TROOP 122 with no affiliation to the BSA, let the boys wear jeans and a button up shirt.

Because you cannot use the word "scouting". BSA has it trademarked. That is 1 of the big hurdles OnMyHonor.Net is working to circumvent at the moment. All goes back to the 1916 Congressional Charter issued to BSA.

http://www.scouting.org/sitecore/content/Licensing/Protecting%20the%20Brand/Boy%20Scouts%20of%20America%20Trademark%20Listing.aspx

30 posted on 08/06/2013 8:00:24 AM PDT by MacNaughton
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To: kinsman redeemer
1. When the National Organization tells us who can/ can't be an adult leader, and

2. When the National Organization dictates what we can/ can't teach.

I hate to tell you this, but these two lines have already been crossed - they just haven't told you yet.

In fact, these policies are already in de facto force. You can't tell someone that something WILL be effective on such and such a future date without implying that that "something" is really okay right now. Such was the case with the "repeal" of Don't-Ask-Don't-Tell. Sodomites "came out" with impunity as soon as the law was passed, even though it wasn't officially effective for many months to come.

And I'll stand by my contention that homosexual adult leaders WILL be not just allowed, but mandated by the time this policy change is official. There is now no defense against it since the BSA forfeited all of its rights to determine membership.

I know this decision is excruciatingly painful for you to make, and to let go of a part of America - a part that was but that is no more - but you really need to seriously consider leaving this now-corrupt organization. You may think your troop is insulated against all of this perversion, but insulated pockets of conservatism is EXACTLY what the moral anarchists love to target the most. And you have a target on your back if you stay.

31 posted on 08/06/2013 8:23:29 AM PDT by fwdude ( You cannot compromise with that which you must defeat.)
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To: PieterCasparzen
BSA has regional activities. You can't dictate to other troops who their leaders are. The boys in your troop are increasingly being placed at risk by staying in the BSA.

Bingo! There are no "lone ranger" scout troops; there will always be interaction with other units in inter- and intra-council camping events, competitions, and shared scouting facilities. There are also subject-specific "camps" emphasizing certain aspects of scouting that comprise members of many different troops. One of my biggest griefs in this respect is the fate of the Order of the Arrow, a sub-organization that is a perfect example of interaction on a nation level of scout members.

One horrible result I'm expecting is the formation of all-"gay" scout troops, most likely being sponsored by the most radical mainline churches like the ECA and PC-USA. These troops will write their own rules - never mind the meaningless "standards" of non-sexuality promulgated by national. The national org has already turned a blind eye to scouts marching, in uniform, in a "gay pride" parade in Utah - it will only get exponentially worst and in-your-face.

These all-"gay" scouting troops most certainly WILL attend multi-unit scouting events. They will be absolute poison to all they touch.

32 posted on 08/06/2013 8:42:26 AM PDT by fwdude ( You cannot compromise with that which you must defeat.)
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To: kinsman redeemer
First, thanks to all who have responded - many privately.

Second, I respect anyone who has already decided to leave Scouts. Initially, I had swung to several alternate possibilities - and I have considered many alternatives.

But for now, I see no immediate reason to flee.

That may come, but for me it is not yet the time.

My interest and the purpose of this thread was to seek legal council and guidance for anyone (like me) who is convinced to stay- and hopefully change the system from within. I am not at all interested in the "go or stay" debate. For me, for now, that is settled.

For your consideration, I offer a quote from a letter written by the Alliance Defending Freedom to the BSA:

“Boy Scouts are charged ‘to do the right thing,’ and this is the right moment for Boy Scouts leadership to set the example and do the right thing: defend Scouts’ honor,” said Senior Counsel David Cortman. “For generations, the Boy Scouts have stood firm on certain moral principles that have successfully shaped our nation’s boys into leaders. The Constitution protects the Boy Scouts’ freedom to promote the values that have defined the organization and to ensure that its leaders and members adhere to those values.”
“Boy Scouts of America was founded upon rich and timeless principles. It shouldn’t give in to intimidation or abandon its values,” said Senior Legal Counsel Erik Stanley, who is an Eagle Scout. “Its leadership should defend the Scouts’ honor and stand strong on the principles that have made the Boy Scouts one of America’s most revered institutions.”
“We write to alert BSA to the legal consequences of giving in to the demands of those who oppose or wish to change BSA’s values,” a summary of the letter to the Boy Scouts states. “Giving in will not alleviate their demands nor will it avoid legal liability for BSA or its many local councils, charters, and troops. It is not legally necessary for BSA to sacrifice its history or its principles in the face of growing threats.”

I do not quote this for the purpose of defending my decision to stay but to set the stage for what the ADF says about the risks of staying. The referenced ADF letter,
"...affirms BSA’s values but warns that an inconsistently applied policy nationwide could open the door to lawsuits. Activist groups could seize upon an inconsistent policy as supposed evidence that the policy is no longer essential to the Boy Scouts’ mission, and local councils and troops could be exposed to individual litigation, the letter explains."

Obviously, our Unit has virtually no control over nationwide policy and its consistent execution. We only have control over the policy that we set locally. For us, consistency with God's Word is paramount. As long as the National policy does not infringe on OUR policy, we can continue.

The BSA National policy includes this (and is marked as having been updated on March 15):
While the BSA does not proactively inquire about the sexual orientation of employees, volunteers, or members, we do not grant membership to individuals who are open or avowed homosexuals or who engage in behavior that would become a distraction to the mission of the BSA.

So, I believe that my Unit must establish Bylaws, or adopt Resolutions that establish a firm commitment to the ideals of the BSA coupled with the biblical tenants of the chartering organization. For our part, we must maintain harmony - both with the stated National policy AND with our church's doctrine. The National policy may change - but OUR policies will not. (REMEMBER: IF a conflict arises, we will join those who, in good conscience have already left BSA.)

I welcome your comments, or advice related to the subject of mitigation of the risk of exposure to legal action while continuing to operate a BSA Unit.

Thank you.

33 posted on 08/06/2013 8:49:08 AM PDT by kinsman redeemer (The real enemy seeks to devour what is good.)
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To: kinsman redeemer
Can I ask as question? Does your unit reserve the right to turn away any boy from membership who you deem does not live up to the standards of Scouting? If you did do this, and the word just "happened" to get to National, what do you think would happen?

I'm not necessarily asking this in just the context of homosexuality, but in any instance where a kid wanted to join. How DO kids join your troop? Are they all just default members of the Church which sponsors it? That wasn't the case in my troop in the 70's, where we had plenty of friends of members who were outside the Church. Just interested in knowing.

34 posted on 08/06/2013 8:57:49 AM PDT by fwdude ( You cannot compromise with that which you must defeat.)
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To: fwdude
Can I ask as question?
Yes.

;^)

Does your unit reserve the right to turn away any boy from membership who you deem does not live up to the standards of Scouting?
Yes.

If you did do this, and the word just "happened" to get to National, what do you think would happen?
We would cite the BSA policy that says, in part:
"... we do not grant membership to individuals who ...engage in behavior that would become a distraction to the mission of the BSA."

You might ask (& it's a good question!),"Will that be their stated policy after January 1, 2014?" And I don't know.

Furthermore, the NEW policy states,
Membership in any program of the Boy Scouts of America requires the youth member to (a) subscribe to and abide by the values expressed in the Scout Oath and Scout Law, (b) subscribe to and abide by the precepts of the Declaration of Religious Principle (duty to God), and (c) demonstrate behavior that exemplifies the highest level of good conduct and respect for others and is consistent at all times with the values expressed in the Scout Oath and Scout Law.

This is a good standard. It does not conflict with our goal of protecting our youth.

Then you ask,"How DO kids join your troop?"
They apply. They meet with the SM. There is no religion test of any kind. They do not have to be members (or from families who are members) of our church. Many of our Scouts come from other churches. We attract such because of the standards that we maintain.

I hope I have answered your questions adequately.

Thank-you.

35 posted on 08/06/2013 10:59:50 AM PDT by kinsman redeemer (The real enemy seeks to devour what is good.)
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To: kinsman redeemer

Food for thought...

What do you plan to do in the case where a new recruit(s) has perverse feelings but has never acted on them and never revealed any of feelings to anyone, the boy is a member for several years, and one day an adult leader happens across sodomy happening involving that boy and one or more others ?

Of course, a parent leader could also be harboring feelings never acted on or spoken of as well (kept hidden).

People hide these feelings from the time they first become “curious”.

Expelling the offenders after a sexual assault or “consensual” action might bring a whole heap of legal troubles on your leadership related to discrimination.

Either way, the parents of some of those boys may feel their sons were raped and they could bring a whole heap of trouble on your leadership related to sexual assault that happened on your watch.

When you have other people’s children under your supervision you are acting in loco parentis, which implies rights and responsibilities.

An attorney who is well-versed in the practical application of this type of law in your state may be one who has dealt with schools in this regard. I’m sure they’d be able to at least speak on some practical experience.

By “practical” application I’m referring to possible real-world outcomes in your State. Since our laws do not have an unchangeable foundation regarding morality, the outcomes are dependent on the perceptions of the day, e.g., only a few decades ago sodomy was largely illegal in the US, but nowadays it has a protected status. How well you fare in such situations may well come down to what judge you find yourself in front of and may be influenced by what kind of protests are mounted by special interest groups and what kind of media coverage the situation receives.


36 posted on 08/06/2013 2:29:40 PM PDT by PieterCasparzen (We have to fix things ourselves)
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To: PieterCasparzen
What do you plan to do in the case...?

Okay. Have you taken YPT?

Do you think anything you describe is not adequately covered by that training?

Is your question one that nobody ever considered before the policy change?

Do you believe that the new policy condones sodomy?

Do you think the new policy condones rape?

.

I'm not talking about some situation in the future where the "perceptions of the day" are different than today.

I'm trying to deal with today's perceptions. Today's reality.

I'm well aware of the constancy of God's Standard and Satan's unyielding attempts to steer culture further and further away from God.

Who will stand up and fight? If not me, who?

I believe that elite institutions, along with individuals who act based on Godly Principles - out of the public spotlight - CAN and SHOULD influence thought-leaders, policy, and the law far more than elections. I believe in the POWER of God to change hearts and minds.

This is one of the principle reasons why Christians are here during this AGE. We are to show people a more excellent way. We are to demonstrate and declare God's Love for them. We are to lead them to the Cross and then the Throne of God so that, in submission and obedience to Him, they willingly conform to the image of Christ!

What else would I do?

If I retreat from the fight, am I serving the King?

If I do not tell a sinner that God loves him and that he does not need to be ruled by sin - am I serving the King of Glory?

I don't think so.

37 posted on 08/06/2013 3:49:47 PM PDT by kinsman redeemer (The real enemy seeks to devour what is good.)
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To: MacNaughton

How about “Boy Pioneers” instead of “Scouts”.


38 posted on 08/09/2013 11:54:18 AM PDT by cradle of freedom (Long live the Republic !)
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To: fwdude

If the Anglican Church could proudly parade their gay peacock bishop it is not impossible to imagine that the liberal churches would just love to show the nation how “enlightened” they are by having gay scout troups. They would be competing with each other to be the first to welcome the gay/bisexual/transgender scouts. Tolerance is the greatest virtue of the day.


39 posted on 08/09/2013 12:12:21 PM PDT by cradle of freedom (Long live the Republic !)
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To: cradle of freedom
...it is not impossible to imagine that the liberal churches would just love to show the nation how “enlightened” they are by having gay scout troups. They would be competing with each other to be the first to welcome the gay/bisexual/transgender scouts.

And you know they will, at their first opportunity.

40 posted on 08/09/2013 12:23:00 PM PDT by fwdude ( You cannot compromise with that which you must defeat.)
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To: cradle of freedom
38 How about “Boy Pioneers” instead of “Scouts”.

http://www.onmyhonor.net/2013/07/09/press-conference/

From the link above - "The new organization’s name is currently in development and undergoing an extensive process of legal research and trademark protection. The organizational structure and primary programs are also currently being developed."

The major national groups working together to create the new organization are ...

•OnMyHonor.net
•Faith Based Boys
•TrailHead USA
•Frontier Service Corps

41 posted on 08/09/2013 2:16:55 PM PDT by MacNaughton
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To: cradle of freedom
39 If the Anglican Church could proudly parade their gay peacock bishop it is not impossible to imagine that the liberal churches would just love to show the nation how “enlightened” they are by having gay scout troups. They would be competing with each other to be the first to welcome the gay/bisexual/transgender scouts. Tolerance is the greatest virtue of the day.

384 BC – 322 BC - Aristotle: attributed but unverified -“Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society.”

Just a slight nudge in terminology here. The exact church to which you are referring is TEC = The Episcopal Church. There is a whole smorsgabord of "continuing" Anglican churches which have schismed from TEC since 2003 (and even before that on other issues) when the open homosexual Gene Robinson was consecrated as diocesan bishop of the state of NH. Thankfully, he retired, prematurely, this year. But there is at least 1 other suffragan bishop out in some California diocese who is lesbo.

Back on 6/20/2013, the bishop of the Diocese of Alabama encouraged Episcopal parishes within his realm to assume the charters of those units which were being discontinued because of the 5/23/2013 BSA vote. The problem, though, is that TEC is dying on the vine. Fewer parishes, fewer average Sunday attendance, fewer baptisms, fewer marriages, fewer members and older average member age.

42 posted on 08/09/2013 2:37:55 PM PDT by MacNaughton
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To: kinsman redeemer
37 ... Who will stand up and fight? If not me, who? I believe that elite institutions, along with individuals who act based on Godly Principles - out of the public spotlight - CAN and SHOULD influence thought-leaders, policy, and the law far more than elections. I believe in the POWER of God to change hearts and minds.

This is one of the principle reasons why Christians are here during this AGE. We are to show people a more excellent way. We are to demonstrate and declare God's Love for them. We are to lead them to the Cross and then the Throne of God so that, in submission and obedience to Him, they willingly conform to the image of Christ!

... What else would I do? If I retreat from the fight, am I serving the King? If I do not tell a sinner that God loves him and that he does not need to be ruled by sin - am I serving the King of Glory? I don't think so.

Though we disagree on which course to take, I respect and admire your position. I encourage you to continue to post on FR your experiences with this topic over the coming year. God may very well work with the faithful remnant who choose to stay affiated with the BSA and even turn matters around.

Ezekiel 33:7-9 (NIV, 2011) 7 “Son of man, I have made you a watchman for the people of Israel; so hear the word I speak and give them warning from me. 8 When I say to the wicked, ‘You wicked person, you will surely die,’ and you do not speak out to dissuade them from their ways, that wicked person will die for [a] their sin, and I will hold you accountable for their blood. 9 But if you do warn the wicked person to turn from their ways and they do not do so, they will die for their sin, though you yourself will be saved.

But what happens when the parents of the same-sex afflicted scout objects to your Christian ministry on this matter and present their case to the local council scout executive?

Matthew 10:14-16 (NIV, © 2011) 14 If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet. 15 Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town. 16 “I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.

43 posted on 08/09/2013 3:07:49 PM PDT by MacNaughton
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To: kinsman redeemer

I wish I had help to offer. I’m a BSA adult leader, and have been for a pretty long time. I have a lot of time and effort invested in working with these boys and their predecessors, and it breaks my heart to see what BSA has done.

My youngest son will make Eagle rank before the end of this year, and he and I will both formally leave BSA the day before BSA’s new policy goes into effect.

We will be moving to a new organization that is more reflective of our values, and we believe will be a more positive organization for boys. BSA has become pretty corrupt, in my opinion. This vote to change policy was a complete slap in the face, because 2/3rd of BSA’s adult leaders were opposed to it. BSA, unfortunately, has a lot of leaders at the top of the food chain who do not, an did not subscribe to BSA’s core beliefs...which means they should have never been in BSA to begin with, let alone allowed to rise to the top of the national level.

Sad day for BSA, and for the country.


44 posted on 09/29/2013 5:56:15 AM PDT by RavenATB
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