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M’ARTHUR ORDERED TO TAKE OFFENSIVE; JAPANESE PRESS ADVANCE IN BURMA (3/21/42)
Microfilm-New York Times archives, Monterey Public Library | 3/21/42 | Byron Darnton, James MacDonald, Harrison Forman, Daniel T. Brigham

Posted on 03/21/2012 4:24:27 AM PDT by Homer_J_Simpson

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TOPICS: History
KEYWORDS: bataan; corregidor; macarthur; milhist; realtime; wainwright; worldwarii
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Free Republic University, Department of History presents World War II Plus 70 Years: Seminar and Discussion Forum
First session: September 1, 2009. Last date to add: September 2, 2015.
Reading assignment: New York Times articles delivered daily to students on the 70th anniversary of original publication date. (Previously posted articles can be found by searching on keyword “realtime” Or view Homer’s posting history .)
To add this class to or drop it from your schedule notify Admissions and Records (Attn: Homer_J_Simpson) by freepmail. Those on the Realtime +/- 70 Years ping list are automatically enrolled. Course description, prerequisites and tuition information is available at the bottom of Homer’s profile. Also visit our general discussion thread
1 posted on 03/21/2012 4:24:35 AM PDT by Homer_J_Simpson
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To: Homer_J_Simpson
Selections from West Point Atlas for the Second World War
Battle of Bataan, 1942
The Far East and the Pacific, 1941 – American Carrier Operations, 7 December 1941-18 April 1942
Micronesia, Melanesia and New Guinea: Japanese Centrifugal Offensive-Japanese Fourth Fleet and South Seas Detachment Operations, December 1941-April 1942
Luzon, P.I., 1941: Centrifugal Offensive, 10 December 1941-6 May 1942-Fourteenth Army Operations on Luzon
Netherlands East Indies, 1941: Japanese Centrifugal Offensive, December 1941-April 1942, Sixteenth Army and Southern Force (Navy) Operations
Southern Asia, 1941: Japanese Centrifugal Offensive (and Continued Operations), January-May 1942
Eastern Europe, 1941: Soviet Winter Offensive – Operations, 6 December 1941-7 May 1942
North Africa, 1940: Rommel’s Second Offensive, 21 January-7 July 1942
2 posted on 03/21/2012 4:25:20 AM PDT by Homer_J_Simpson ("Every nation has the government that it deserves." - Joseph de Maistre (1753-1821))
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To: r9etb; PzLdr; dfwgator; Paisan; From many - one.; rockinqsranch; 2banana; henkster; meandog; ...
General Tells Aim (Darnton) – 2-3
Fight at Toungoo (MacDonald) – 5-6
We Mean Business, Stilwell Asserts (Forman) – 6
War News Summarized (title revised again) – 7
Red Army Drives Wedges Deeper into Nazi Defenses (Brigham) – 9
Texts of Day’s War Communiques – 12-13
3 posted on 03/21/2012 4:27:34 AM PDT by Homer_J_Simpson ("Every nation has the government that it deserves." - Joseph de Maistre (1753-1821))
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To: Homer_J_Simpson

http://www.onwar.com/chrono/1942/mar42/f21mar42.htm

German attempt break out of Demyansk
Saturday, March 21, 1942 www.onwar.com

On the Eastern Front... The units of the German 16th Army entrapped at Demyansk begin attempts to break out.


4 posted on 03/21/2012 4:29:40 AM PDT by Homer_J_Simpson ("Every nation has the government that it deserves." - Joseph de Maistre (1753-1821))
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To: Homer_J_Simpson

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/andrew.etherington/frame.htm

March 21st, 1942

UNITED KINGDOM: Woburn, England: A story passed to London by British agents in occupied Europe is causing satisfied chuckles among “Leeper’s Sleepers” who work at the Duke of Bedford’s seat, Woburn Abbey, requisitioned for the duration. Apparently German troops conducted a house-to-house search in Bucharest, looking for a Romanian freedom radio station. They did not find it - in fact the station operates from Woburn Abbey.

It is just one of several clandestine transmitters directed at Hitler’s Europe, supposedly operated by anti-Nazis but actually run by a secret government agency, camouflaged as a department of the ministry of economic warfare, which until five days ago was run by Hugh Dalton. Churchill dubbed Dalton “minister of ungentlemanly warfare”. Dalton appointed an old hand at the intelligence game, Rex Leeper, and told him that he would back him an any kind of dirty tricks he could work up.

Some are fiendishly simple. As one agent confessed: “It’s wonderful the chaos you can cause by switching destination labels on railway wagons.”

Subversive slander is another handy and potent weapon, although it can backfire. Rumours of orgies, degeneracy or luxury living by Nazi leaders while the people suffer have been set off by agents in casual conversation in Europe, only to surface later as hard intelligence.

Forged identity cards and fake German newspapers with gloomy reports are routine at Woburn Abbey. One of the most successful operations is run by Sefton Delmer, a former Daily Express correspondent in Berlin. His Gustav Siegfried Eins radio station, supposedly run by disgruntled German soldiers, likes to tell German soldiers at the front that back home foreign workers are going to bed with their wives and infecting them with VD.

The Gloster factory rolls out its final Hawker Hurricane. (22)

Destroyer HMS Rotherham launched. (Dave Shirlaw)

GERMANY: Berlin: Severe penalties including sentences in concentration camps, are announced to deter people from making unnecessary journeys by rail.

Intent on gearing the German war industry up to the highest possible levels of production, Hitler today appointed former merchant sailor and early Nazi street fighter, Fritz Sauckel as Reich Plenipotentiary-General for Labour Mobilisation, to seize forced labourers from occupied Europe. Labour shortages are the greatest impediment to increased production at the moment. Sauckel is to use whatever methods are necessary to obtain sufficient numbers of workers: they may be snatched from the streets or from their homes. They are then to be transported, without food, water or sanitation, to their places of work. Krupp, the manufacturer of guns, tanks and ammunition, is expected to be one of Sauckel’s best customers.

Able-bodied men and women from occupied countries are ideal employees from the German point of view. They can be worked unpaid until they drop, and their keep costs almost nothing. Forced labour camps are carefully sited to suit the needs of German industry. There were 21 million foreign workers in Germany at the beginning of this year plus 1.5 million PoWs working in German industry or agriculture. Both figures are expected to grow dramatically as a result of today’s move.

The RAF Bomber Command dispatches a Wellington to Essen during the day but it returns due to lack of cloud cover. (Jack McKillop)

U-960 laid down. (Dave Shirlaw)

U.S.S.R.: In the northern sector south of Lake Ilmen, thirteen divisions of the German 16th Army and 2nd Armeekorps in a salient at Demyansk kessel begin to withdraw. The route is partially subject to interdiction artillery fire but is not completely cut. The winter thaw holds them up and it is not until 21 April that the divisions make contact with German troops. The salient resembles a mushroom lying on its side, with the corridor at the base being about 10 kilometres wide. The number of divisions inside the salient varies as some are relieved and others are sent in.

“At the beginning of March 1942 such a relief attack had been planned and significant reinforcements shuttled into the Staraya Russa area to carry it through. Hitler entrusted the operation to General Walther von Seydlitz-Kurbach, who received command of the Tenth Army Corps and its specially beefed-up force consisting of the 5th and 8th Jäger Divisions, and the 122nd, 127th, and 329th Infantry Divisions. Seydlitz’s attack against the Soviet forces between 10th Armeekorps and the pocket was scheduled for 7:30am, March 21.” (p.223).[*]

This was known as “Operation GANGWAY” (Unternehmen ‘Fallreep’). It took nearly a month of heavy combat from without and within the kessel to enable the link-up to, and eventual exit of the besieged German troops from the Demjansk pocket. Sydnor notes:

“On April 22, seventy-three days after the encirclement of German forces around Demjansk, the bridgehead was secure enough for Seydlitz to begin ferrying supplies across the river by barge; the siege had officially ended.” (p.226). (257)

(Jack McKillop, Russ Folsom, Pat and Diane McTaggart & Jeff Chrisman)

ITALY: The Second Battle of Sirte. The Axis, now aware of the British supply convoy sailing from Alexandria, Egypt, to Malta, dispatch Vice Admiral Angelo Iachino from Taranto with the battleship Littorio and four destroyers; Rear-Admiral Angelo Parona also sets sail from Messina with the heavy cruisers Gorizia and Trento, the light cruiser Bande Nere and four destroyers. (Jack McKillop)

MALTA: In a repeat of Force H’s mission on 7 March 1942, 16 more Spitfires are delivered to Malta. (Jack McKillop)

LIBYA: The British Eighth Army continues raids on forward landing grounds of Axis forces as a diversion for a convoy to Malta. The raids are partially successful drawing off part of the enemy’s aircraft. (Jack McKillop)

INDIA: New Delhi: Sit Stafford Cripps, the lord privy seal, arrives here next week armed with new constitutional proposals for India. Although he declined to reveal what these proposals would be before leaving London, there seems little doubt that some sort of independence will be offered. The Labour Party is committed to Indian independence and Churchill, a doughty champion of British rule, has been pressed strongly by President Roosevelt to offer India self-government after the war.

With the possibility of a Japanese threat to India, the millions of Indians who are serving with Allied forces will expect nothing less, whatever the ultimate problems of reconciling the Hindu majority and Moslem minority.

The Assam-Burma-China Ferry Command is activated. It consists of 25 Pan-American World Airways DC-3 transports, which are soon diverted from mission of taking supplies to China in order to supply forces withdrawing from Burma. (Jack McKillop)

BURMA: The Japanese open a 24-hour air operation against Magwe Airdrome in Burma where the American Volunteer Group’s (AVG’s) 3d Fighter Squadron and RAF units are based. AVG pilots down two Nakajima Ki-27 Army Type 97 Fighters (Allied Code Name “Nate”) at 1430 hours. The Japanese attack destroys nine RAF Bristol Blenheims and three AVG H87s on the ground and three RAF fighters are shot down. (Jack McKillop)

The Burma 1st Division, upon being relieved on the Toungoo front by the Chinese 200th Division, Chinese 5th Army, begins a movement to the Irrawaddy front, leaving a large area south of Toungoo undefended. Lieutenant General Joseph Stilwell, Commanding General American Army Forces, China, Burma and India and Chief of Staff of the Chinese Army, now in Burma, issues orders for Chinese participation in the defence of the line Toungoo-Prome. The Chinese 5th Army is charged with the defence of Toungoo; its 200th Division is reinforced by attachment of the Temporary 55th Division (T-55th ) of the Chinese 6th Army, which is to move to Pyawbwe. In army reserve, the Chinese 22d Division is directed to Taungdwingyi, where it is to be prepared to assist the British in the Prome area while the Chinese 96th Division is to move to Mandalay. (Jack McKillop)
Japanese bombers and fighters open as 24-hour operation against Magwe Airdrome. Pilots of the 3d Fighter Squadron, American Volunteer Group (AVG, aka, “The Flying Tigers”), shoot down two Nakajima Ki-27, Army Type 97 Fighters (later assigned the Allied Code Name “Nate”) at 1430 hours. The Japanese attack the airfield and destroy nine RAF Blenheim Mk. IV bombers and three AVG P-40s on the ground and three RAF Hurricane Mk. IIs in the air. (Jack McKillop)

JAPAN: In THE JAPAN TIMES newspaper, Rear Admiral SOSA Tanetsuga warns the Japanese people of American bases in Alaska and the Aleutians that could threaten the Homeland. (Jack McKillop)

COMMONWEALTH OF THE PHILIPPINES: US forces start a retreat to the heavily fortified island of Corregidor in Manila Bay.

Lieutenant General Jonathan Wainwright, as commander of U.S. Forces in the Philippines (USFIP), which supersedes U.S. Army Forces, Far East (USAFFE), establishes headquarters on Corregidor Island and appoints Major General Lewis Beebe his chief of staff. Major General Edward P. King, Jr., is named commander of Luzon Force. (Jack McKillop)

NEW GUINEA: The first four Curtiss Kittyhawks Mk. IAs of RAAF No. 75 Squadron arrive at Seven Mile Airdrome at Port Moresby. As Flight Lieutenant Turnbull leads his flight of four aircraft at low level in the approach to the runway at the Seven Mile aerodrome, one of the Anti-Aircraft gunners opens fire . Immediately other guns go into action and the firing continues until Turnbull had actually landed and the other three pilots had lowered their under-carriages.

Three of the four aircraft were damaged, one of them so severely that it was never flown again, and Jeffrey escaped death by a margin of no more than an inch or two when a bullet ripped through the cushion behind his head.

The remainder of the squadron arrives two hours later.

Of the squadron’s twenty-one pilots only four had been in combat.

Two—Jackson and Turnbull—had flown against German and Italian aircraft in the Middle East ; another, Flight Lieutenant Anderson, was a survivor from the interception of the Japanese attack on Rabaul by Wirraways of No 24 Squadron, and the fourth, Flying Officer Woods, had served as second pilot of a Hudson operating from Port Moresby.

This lack of combat experience was not to last long ; in fact, for two of them—Flying Officers Cox and Wackett—no longer than one hour. Within that time a report was received that an enemy bomber was approaching Port Moresby on the routine daily reconnaissance the defenders had come to know well. Cox and Wackett were immediately ordered to intercept.

Climbing through cloud they surprised the enemy aircraft at 10,000 feet.

Cox made the first attack and put the bomber’s port engine out of action. Wackett followed with a starboard attack and put a burst of gunfire into the other engine causing it to lose height rapidly until, at a height of about 500 feet, it exploded and crashed into the sea near the entrance, through the reef, to Port Moresby Harbour. It was a spectacular first “kill” for the squadron and, achieved so soon after their arrival and in full view of the garrison, it did much to raise the defender’s and the squadron’s spirits. Wackett and Cox shared the credit equally.

Port Moresby radio station “jammed” the bomber’s operational frequency while the interception was made, to prevent the bomber’s crew from giving away the secret of the arrival of No 75 Squadron, and listeners had the satisfaction of hearing the enemy base operator calling in vain for some time after the aircraft had been destroyed.

(Jack McKillop and Daniel Ross)

AUSTRALIA: Lieutenant General George H. Brett, Commanding General of U.S. Army Forces in Australia, assumes command of all Allied air forces in Australia. (Jack McKillop)

Late in the afternoon, General Douglas MacArthur’s train reaches Kooringa, 80 miles (129 kilometres) north of Adelaide, South Australia. One of his staff officers, Colonel Dick Marshall, who had been sent on ahead, boards the train and tells the general that there are fewer than 32,000 Allied troops, American, British, and Australian, in the whole country, most of them service forces. There is not a single tank in the nation and the only combat-ready force is one brigade of the Australian 6th Division. If the Japanese land, the Australians intend to withdraw to the “Brisbane Line,” holding the settled southern and eastern coasts, abandoning the northern ports to the Japanese. Supply lines to the rest of the Allied world, committed to defeating Germany first, are long. “God have mercy on us,” MacArthur whispers. It is, he writes, his greatest shock and surprise of the whole war. In Adelaide, MacArthur swaps his little train for a luxurious private car provided by the Commissioner of the South Australian Railways. The press is there to greet him and seek a statement. MacArthur scrawls on the back of an envelope, “The President of the United States ordered me to break through the Japanese lines ...for the purpose, as I understand it, of organizing the American offensive against Japan, a primary object of which is the relief of the Philippines. I came through and I shall return.” (Though he had reputedly said effectively the same speech at Terowie the previous day, according the eue witnesses) (Jack McKillop and Daniel Ross)

One of the great myths of the war in Australia. The “Brisbane Line” was simply a statement of fact - if the the task was to defend “vital assets” and population then the line from just north of Brisbane to just west of Port Augusta contained the bulk of the population, assets, logistics and military infrastructure (with a separate defended locality around Perth). It had be a pre-war staff study that gave rise to the myth (when it was “discovered” by the media after prompting by Eddie Ward (ALP) as a means to put Menzies (UAP) to the political sword).

At no time were there defence preparations on the basis of this study - troops, supplies and equipment was deployed as far forward as Darwin.

Mac did not “end it” because it did not really exist.

See The Brisbane Line Controversy by Paul Burns Allen and Unwin, 1998, paperback, 254pp ISBN: 1864485396

Also http://www.defence.gov.au/army/AHU/REVIEWS/brisbaneline-rev.htm

(Daniel Ross)

CANADA: Minesweeper HMCS Courtenay commissioned. (Dave Shirlaw)

U.S.A.: The motion picture “Secret Agent of Japan” opens at the Globe Theater in New York City. Directed by Irving Pichel, this spy thriller, the first film to include the Pearl Harbor attack in the plot, stars Preston Foster and Lynn Bari. (Jack McKillop)

The United States agrees to provide US$500 million in aid to China. (With inflation, US$500 million in 1942 is equal to US$5.5 trillion in year 2002 dollars.) (Jack McKillop)

President Roosevelt signs Public Law 77-503, which makes it a federal crime for a person ordered to leave a military area to refuse to do so. (Scott Peterson) More...

Submarine USS Mingto laid down.
Destroyer USS Buchanan commissioned.

Corvette USS Temptress commissioned.

(Dave Shirlaw)

ATLANTIC OCEAN: German submarine U-124 torpedoes two U.S. merchant tankers off the coast of North Carolina, U.S.A.: (1) The first is an unarmed tanker about 70 miles (113 kilometres) off Wilmington. The ship breaks in two and the aft end is towed to Morehead City. (2) The second is an armed tanker off the Beaufort Lightship, but little damage is inflicted and the ship reaches Beaufort without further incident. (Jack McKillop)

U-652 sank HMS Heythrop.

U-71 sank SS Oakmar. (Dave Shirlaw)


5 posted on 03/21/2012 4:31:13 AM PDT by Homer_J_Simpson ("Every nation has the government that it deserves." - Joseph de Maistre (1753-1821))
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To: Homer_J_Simpson

Looks like the MacArthur propaganda machine overreached on that one. As if the General would risk blistering his hands by taking up an oar.


6 posted on 03/21/2012 4:56:02 AM PDT by PAR35
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To: Homer_J_Simpson

In answer to your question of yesterday, it is now 2038 (8:38 pm) 20Mar 2012 here.


7 posted on 03/21/2012 5:39:39 AM PDT by Tainan (Cogito, ergo conservatus sum)
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To: PAR35
In reading the autobiographies of several well-known war corespondent photographers of the WWII era, it was made very clear that there were no "candid" photography of MacArthur allowed.
Every photo of him released was first cleared by his aides. The famous pictures of him "Returning" were the results of multiple re-shoots.
He was a very vain person. Quite unlike Gens. Wainwright and Stillwell.
8 posted on 03/21/2012 5:47:16 AM PDT by Tainan (Cogito, ergo conservatus sum)
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To: Tainan
In answer to your question of yesterday, it is now 2038 (8:38 pm) 20Mar 2012 here.

Amazing! You're actually reading news from the future!

9 posted on 03/21/2012 5:55:20 AM PDT by Homer_J_Simpson ("Every nation has the government that it deserves." - Joseph de Maistre (1753-1821))
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To: PAR35
the MacArthur propaganda machine

What I am finding interesting is not the idea that he was over blown. I think that idea is overblown. But considering he was out of most communication in the Philippines it is really interesting how but the journalists and the administration seem to have latched onto him as a hero puppet. They are pumping him up as a moral tool. It is a bit ridiculous but I guess it makes sense why they would do it. With all the bad news I guess they felt people needed the idea that there was a capable champion out there ready to turn the tide. That and some of the propaganda was no doubt aimed at demoralizing the enemy. For that reason alone it makes sense that they would pump up is 'daring escape'.
10 posted on 03/21/2012 6:11:09 AM PDT by TalonDJ
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To: Tainan

And he always: [1] Referred to himself in the third person,
[2] Never gave public recognition to any to of his subordinates resulting in a MacArthur success.
[3] Never took personal responsibility for any failures, blaming instead, the now named subordinates.
[4] Surrounded himself with toadying ‘Yes’ men on his staff [see, especially his G-2, and Ned Almond].

He also lobbied to deny Wainright the CMH, and wanted to have him court-martialed for surrendering against his [MacArthur’s] orders.


11 posted on 03/21/2012 6:11:25 AM PDT by PzLdr ("The Emperor is not as forgiving as I am" - Darth Vader)
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To: PzLdr

Exactly correct on all points. He, like McClellan were the perfumed princes of their times. Both were politically connected and both treated their subordinates and superiors in the same arrogant manner. Neither met a PR man they didn’t like.

Dugout Doug carefully built his mythology just like the Kennedy’s built their Camelot myth.


12 posted on 03/21/2012 6:56:29 AM PDT by RJS1950 (The democrats are the "enemies foreign and domestic" cited in the federal oath)
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To: PzLdr

Some of MacArthur’s subordinates, such as Krueger and Kenney, were extremely competent commanders of their own right. But you have to be a history buff to know about them. “Lightning Joe” Collins was almost relegated to the same fate, but he avoided it by being transferred to the ETO where he became of our best Corps commanders.


13 posted on 03/21/2012 7:54:02 AM PDT by henkster (Andrew Breitbart would not have apologized.)
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To: Homer_J_Simpson

14 posted on 03/21/2012 9:39:00 AM PDT by CougarGA7 ("History is politics projected into the past" - Michael Pokrovski)
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To: PAR35; Homer_J_Simpson
Looks like the MacArthur propaganda machine overreached on that one.

To which article are you referring? The one I read on P4 cites FDR as source of the rowboat escape story.

As if the General would risk blistering his hands by taking up an oar.

Why do you believe MacArthur wouldn't risk blistering his hands?

15 posted on 03/21/2012 9:43:17 AM PDT by fso301
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To: PzLdr; Homer_J_Simpson
And he always: [1] Referred to himself in the third person,

Subordinates have written of his condensing the struggle down to him against the Jap. Media reports may use third person but when MacArthur would be walking back and forth in the room talking, it was he against the Jap.

[2] Never gave public recognition to any to of his subordinates resulting in a MacArthur success.

Who aside from historians and history enthusiasts can name subordinates of Patton, Montgomery, Bradley, etc?

[3] Never took personal responsibility for any failures, blaming instead, the now named subordinates.

Did Montgomery ever take responsibility for Market Garden? Did Patton ever take responsibility for Task Force Baum? Did Bradley ever take responsibility for the Battle of the Bulge? Perhaps they did. If so, I must have missed it in their memoirs.

16 posted on 03/21/2012 10:02:49 AM PDT by fso301
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To: TalonDJ; Homer_J_Simpson
For that reason alone it makes sense that they would pump up is 'daring escape'.

I've read where the navy gave odds of a successful escape at 1 in 5. In the face of such odds, do you not consider such escape to have been daring?

17 posted on 03/21/2012 10:08:02 AM PDT by fso301
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To: RJS1950; Homer_J_Simpson
Dugout Doug carefully built his mythology just like the Kennedy’s built their Camelot myth.

Why do you believe MacArthur was no more courageous or competent than JFK at the helm of PT-109?

18 posted on 03/21/2012 10:17:37 AM PDT by fso301
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To: fso301

[1] MacArthur did use the third person describing himself.
[2] First, Patton was a subordinate himself. Bradley and Monty commanded the Army Groups. And quite a lot of people knew who Hodges, Gerow, Collin, and Creighton Abrams were.
[3] Compared to the December 7th-8th f*uck up, the screw ups at Bataan, the New Guinea campaign, Leyte [invaded for airfields that couldn’t be built because of the soil], and the almost wholely unneeded Southern Pacific campaign, Baum’s not much. As for the Battle of the Bulge, blame for that rests principally on Ike [unfamiliar with the sector, not convinced by junior G-2s and his J-2 that something was up]. Compare it to the run up to Kasserine.

And as for Monty, he’s the nearest thing to MacArthur there is. And I DESPIUSE Bernard Law Montgomery.


19 posted on 03/21/2012 10:26:52 AM PDT by PzLdr ("The Emperor is not as forgiving as I am" - Darth Vader)
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To: fso301

I don’t and I was referring to the making of a myth but since you bring it up his exploits on PT109 have been disputed quite a bit over the years. At best, he inappropriately put his boat in danger through incompetence and should have been courts martialed except for his political ties. He was put into that position after he created an espionage issue by way of his skirt chasing.

MacArthur didn’t plan any operation, ever. He “approved” the operations that were put together by more competent subordinates and passed the blame on to subordinates when something failed. He refused to consider the pleas of the Naval brass that the invasion of minor islands like Peleliu would be disasterous and unneeded and he ignored those who told him that an overland/through the cities invasion of the Phillipines would also be a disaster. His shameful actions in trying to have Wainwright courts martialed for not following his orders to lead he and his men in a fight to the last man is especially indicative of his self-absorbed incompetence. He continually disparaged Eisenhower as SACEUR because he could not stand the idea that the man who had been assigned as one of his aides as a Major just a few years prior had reached a position higher than his.

MacArthur was a huge steaming piece of mythology as was JFK.


20 posted on 03/21/2012 10:41:20 AM PDT by RJS1950 (The democrats are the "enemies foreign and domestic" cited in the federal oath)
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To: PzLdr

And the Germans had Erwin Rommel, “the Desert Fox.” How much of his mystique was played up by Goebbels, and how much the Field Marshal played it up himself, is open to conjecture.

Had Rommel stayed at 7th Panzer Division and been sent to the Eastern Front, he would have been just another competent panzer commander swallowed up in the vast expanses of the East.


21 posted on 03/21/2012 10:50:21 AM PDT by henkster (Andrew Breitbart would not have apologized.)
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To: PzLdr
[1] MacArthur did use the third person describing himself.

Which is fine but in your original post, you said he always used third person. I merely pointed out that multiple subordinates mention his manner of breaking the conflict down to a first person singular struggle between himself and the "Jap" in a manner similar to "If the Jap attacks me here, I shall..."

[2] First, Patton was a subordinate himself. Bradley and Monty commanded the Army Groups.

True and I dare say Ike with no combat experience period saw himself as something akin to a Gen. Marshall. A chief of staff sitting far to the rear administering operations. Therefore, Ike had no choice but to give operational credit to individual army commanders.

And quite a lot of people knew who Hodges, Gerow, Collin, and Creighton Abrams were.

Quiz the average college graduate who took American History and I'm confident the overwhelming majority could not answer a fill in the blank quiz requiring use of such names.

[3] Compared to the December 7th-8th f*uck up,

What was it that you consider to be the big Dec 8th f*uck up?

the screw ups at Bataan,

Well, the Bataan forces are still holding out at this point. Can the Brit's or Dutch say the same about theirs? Furthermore, for how much longer do you believe the Bataan forces will need to hold out before re-enforcements from the U.S. arrive?

the New Guinea campaign, Leyte [invaded for airfields that couldn’t be built because of the soil], and the almost wholely unneeded Southern Pacific campaign,

I dare say the proportionally greater number of men in MacArthur's forces who lived to return home, go to college, marry, start careers and live normal lives might disagree with your assessment but I'm sure that there will be ample opportunity starting later this year to discuss the campaigns you mention in detail.

As for the Battle of the Bulge, blame for that rests principally on Ike [unfamiliar with the sector, not convinced by junior G-2s and his J-2 that something was up]. Compare it to the run up to Kasserine.

Yet Ike is considered by so many to have been such a great general.

22 posted on 03/21/2012 11:52:17 AM PDT by fso301
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To: RJS1950
I don’t and I was referring to the making of a myth but since you bring it up his exploits on PT109 have been disputed quite a bit over the years. At best, he inappropriately put his boat in danger through incompetence and should have been courts martialed except for his political ties.

So, you believe MacArthur was as inept of a commander as JFK was at the helm of PT-109?

23 posted on 03/21/2012 11:58:05 AM PDT by fso301
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To: PzLdr
He also lobbied to deny Wainright the CMH, and wanted to have him court-martialed for surrendering against his [MacArthur’s] orders.

This is one of the more bothersome things about MacArthur. I don't understand why he went through such efforts to block Wainwright's CMH. Ironically, if you read MacArthur's own CMH citation it looks like the only thing wrong with it is the name it is attributed to. It should read Wainwright instead of MacArthur. I actually wrote an entire paper on just that odd bit for one of my masters degree classes.

24 posted on 03/21/2012 12:35:52 PM PDT by CougarGA7 ("History is politics projected into the past" - Michael Pokrovski)
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To: CougarGA7; PzLdr
This is one of the more bothersome things about MacArthur. I don't understand why he went through such efforts to block Wainwright's CMH.

This is a topic I haven't given a great deal of attention to but I suspect MacArthur being denied the MOH in the Veracruz expedition and again in WWI may have had some role to play.

25 posted on 03/21/2012 1:05:18 PM PDT by fso301
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To: fso301; PzLdr
This is a topic I haven't given a great deal of attention to but I suspect MacArthur being denied the MOH in the Veracruz expedition and again in WWI may have had some role to play.

Hard to say. If that is the reason though, it is a real poor excuse.

26 posted on 03/21/2012 1:09:31 PM PDT by CougarGA7 ("History is politics projected into the past" - Michael Pokrovski)
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To: CougarGA7; PzLdr
Hard to say. If that is the reason though, it is a real poor excuse.

I wouldn't say it's the sole reason but I don't believe it could be dismissed.

As the recipient in WWI of 2 DSCs, 1 DSM, 6 Silver Stars and 2 wound stripes, completing the war as the most decorated U.S. soldier yet being denied an MOH had to be significant to MacArthur.

Fast forward to 1942. Without getting into what Wainwright may or may not have done, MacArthur didn't ask to leave Corregidor, he was ordered to do so. Less than a month after he left and was replaced by Wainwright, Bataan fell and a month later Corregidor fell.

I can see where in coveting his own MOH, MacArthur felt that had he not been ordered off Corregidor, his name should have been the one nominated for that MOH. It's simple human nature.

27 posted on 03/21/2012 2:10:30 PM PDT by fso301
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To: fso301
I can see where in coveting his own MOH, MacArthur felt that had he not been ordered off Corregidor, his name should have been the one nominated for that MOH. It's simple human nature.

But he did get one for his effort on Bataan. He got it before Wainwright was even nominated for his. I think it was more hubris than human nature. There was no logical reason to block the citation for his subordinate.

28 posted on 03/21/2012 2:57:18 PM PDT by CougarGA7 ("History is politics projected into the past" - Michael Pokrovski)
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To: Homer_J_Simpson
"In answer to your question of yesterday, it is now 2038 (8:38 pm) 21 Mar 2012 here."
Amazing! You're actually reading news from the future!

Well, I did get the date wrong - corrected above. I'm at GMT + 8 hrs.

29 posted on 03/21/2012 4:35:22 PM PDT by Tainan (Cogito, ergo conservatus sum)
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To: fso301
Why do you believe MacArthur wouldn't risk blistering his hands?

Because he was an arrogant prima donna who surrounded himself with toadies. The antithesis of Omar Bradley in a general officer.

30 posted on 03/21/2012 4:51:50 PM PDT by PAR35
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To: CougarGA7
But he did get one for his effort on Bataan. He got it before Wainwright was even nominated for his.

For some odd reason I had it in my head that MacArthur was awarded the MOH in 1943. Thanks for the clarification.

I think it was more hubris than human nature.

I think hubris is a part of human nature but I'm not a psychologist/sociologist/clergyman and therefore may not be best qualified to make such determination.

There was no logical reason to block the citation for his subordinate.

As I previously mentioned, I'm not up on Wainwright's MOH recommendation nor reasons MacArthur had for opposing it. Having said that, because MacArthur had awarded Wainwright a DSC in Jan '42 for his actions in Luzon and Bataan, My inclination is to suspect MacArthur viewed Wainwright's holding out for 2 months and then surrendering the entire archipelago as not rising to the MOH level but again, I'm not up on this.

I will however, look into it deeper at some future date.

31 posted on 03/21/2012 4:57:39 PM PDT by fso301
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To: fso301
Why do you believe MacArthur was no more courageous or competent than JFK at the helm of PT-109?

Kennedy just had one major screw up. MacArthur had at least three major league screwups.

32 posted on 03/21/2012 5:07:23 PM PDT by PAR35
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To: PAR35
Thank you for responding.

Because he was an arrogant prima donna who surrounded himself with toadies. The antithesis of Omar Bradley in a general officer.

On Dec 7, 1941, how many valor awards did Bradley have versus MacArthur?

Wasn't Bradley known for sacking his generals?

33 posted on 03/21/2012 5:09:45 PM PDT by fso301
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To: PAR35

Wrong. Kennedy’s first major screw up was an affair with a female Danish reporter believed to be an Axis agent [she denied this] while JFK was assigned toDC- in Naval Intelligence. His old man gothim transferred to PT school in South Carolina to stop that. She followed, the affair resumed.

When Kennedy got to the Pacific, his second screw up was hitting a dock with the PT boat he was in command of. Damaged the dock. Damaged the boat.

And if any lesser mortal had screwed up the mission that got PT 109 sunk as badly as Kennedy, he would have been courtmartialled.

Concededly, those faux pas don’t rank with Dougie’s, but they were still ordering the bricks for Camelot back then, while MacArthur was already [to his own mind] a historical impulse of the first order.


34 posted on 03/21/2012 6:20:18 PM PDT by PzLdr ("The Emperor is not as forgiving as I am" - Darth Vader)
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To: fso301

Bradley sacked Terry Allen and Theodore Roosevelt Junior from the Big Red One, in Sicily. He sacked others. He was also Ike’s stoolie in II Corps when Patton was the CG.

And good old Brad honed his “Infantryman’s General” persona with as much of a vengeance as Pistol Packin’ Georgie did with his. But at least his mother never lobbied for him [including pushing for medals in WW I] like Dougie’s did.


35 posted on 03/21/2012 6:24:18 PM PDT by PzLdr ("The Emperor is not as forgiving as I am" - Darth Vader)
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To: Homer_J_Simpson

Another great post, as usual, Homer. Thank you for all of the effort you put into this series; I have learned so much from the material and the discussions in the threads.


36 posted on 03/21/2012 7:12:35 PM PDT by TonyInOhio (A society that becomes more Muslim eventually becomes less everything else.)
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To: fso301

I will concede that Bradley lacked MacArthur’s self-promotional skills and had only a fraction of his ego.


37 posted on 03/21/2012 7:43:57 PM PDT by PAR35
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To: fso301

MacArthur got his on Arpil Fool’s Day, 1942. (Here in about 10 days). I bet his pants aren’t even dry yet from leaving the Philippines.

I can’t remember when Wainwright was recommended, I think it was June or July of this year, but MacArthur would doggedly block the recommendation until Truman stepped in (September 1945ish) and saw to it that Wainwright got the CMH.

I would certainly hope that there is more to his opposition than MacArthur’s patented arrogance but, like you, I haven’t looked at this any further than an analysis I did on the details of his citation itself over two years ago.


38 posted on 03/21/2012 8:02:43 PM PDT by CougarGA7 ("History is politics projected into the past" - Michael Pokrovski)
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To: PzLdr

The one Bradley should have sacked was Courtney Hodges. When the Germans broke through the Ardennes starting the Battle of the Bulge, Hodges was so confused and upset over the surprise assault on his weakest point of the line that he took to his bed. General Kean, fortunately his able CoS, issued the initial orders that kept that situation from turning into a complete rout.

It still amazes me that the front at the Ardennes was manned the way it was. No one learned the lesson from the initial push into France in 1940....or 1870 for that matter. You’d think one of them would have remembered the “Miracle of Sedan”.


39 posted on 03/21/2012 9:26:18 PM PDT by CougarGA7 ("History is politics projected into the past" - Michael Pokrovski)
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To: henkster
And the Germans had Erwin Rommel, “the Desert Fox.” How much of his mystique was played up by Goebbels, and how much the Field Marshal played it up himself, is open to conjecture.

Similar questions were being asked in Germany at the time. Some time ago, I looked into this. In light of the situation in the east, Germans were asking why wasn't Rommel being given a larger command?

Had Rommel stayed at 7th Panzer Division and been sent to the Eastern Front, he would have been just another competent panzer commander swallowed up in the vast expanses of the East.

As I recall, the consensus of the German high command was that Rommel was a good tactician best suited for a corps command rather than say command of a fully equipped army, or army group.

I neither agree nor disagree but that was essentially the conclusion I arrived at when I looked into this quite some ago.

40 posted on 03/22/2012 5:08:50 AM PDT by fso301
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To: PzLdr
But at least his mother never lobbied for him [including pushing for medals in WW I] like Dougie’s did.

That's interesting. MacArthur, known for leading trench raids from the front while unarmed was awarded a lot of medals in WWI. Because his mother was stateside and understanding communications in that era, how was MacArthur's mother involved in his being awarded medals for service in WWI?

41 posted on 03/22/2012 5:29:25 AM PDT by fso301
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To: fso301

Having read Rommel’s memoirs and a few biographies of him, I agree with the assessment of his colleagues. Most of his successes in North Africa were done with what was really little better than a Panzer Corps with some unreliable allied units attached.

I had the pleasure of communicating with a German veteran who served under Rommel in North Africa and later under Kesselring in Italy. He detested Rommel; said Rommel only wanted glory at the cost of the blood of his soldiers. He loved Kesselring, who he claimed was considerate of the welfare of his troops.


42 posted on 03/22/2012 5:33:17 AM PDT by henkster (Andrew Breitbart would not have apologized.)
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To: fso301

She lobbied the Sec./War, and the senior brass. You do know that she lived at the Thayer Hotel for all four years that Dougie was at West Point. And that her disapproval of Mrs. Dougie #1 contributed to Dougie’s divorcing her [the bride had been one of “Black Jac” Pershing’s mistresses, along with George Patton’s sister. Pershing gave an oil painting of the bride as a wedding gift to the then happy couple].

And Dougie’s mother got away with it because she was the widow of Gen. Arthur MacArthur, who had won the CMH in the Civil War.


43 posted on 03/22/2012 5:36:45 AM PDT by PzLdr ("The Emperor is not as forgiving as I am" - Darth Vader)
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To: PAR35

I think Bradley had a very large ego. He was also a vindictive bastard with a long memory. He just kept it hidden under that , “aw, Shucks!” image he so assiduously promoted.


44 posted on 03/22/2012 5:40:58 AM PDT by PzLdr ("The Emperor is not as forgiving as I am" - Darth Vader)
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To: henkster

I’m a BIG Rommel fan, so I’ll state I have a bias up front.

Having said that, I respectfully disagree with your analysis of how he would have done on the Eastern Front. Whether as a division commander under his old Corps commander from France, Hermann Hoth [7th Pz was part of PzGrp 3], or as a Corps commander, Rommel would have brought a great deal of drive, ingenuity and elan to the Eastern Front. For example, Rommel was the first German Army officer to use 88s as anti-tank guns at Arras in 1940
[although there are claims, which I can’t substantiate, that von Thoma may have done it in Spain].

Rommel wasn’t just competent in 1940, he led the way. He crossed the Meuse before Guderian. He led the drive through France. And he had never handled armor before that time. He was the ultimate combat commander, and would have shone anywhere.

When I was at Armor School, further back then I’d care to remember, Patton was King. But Rommel was God.


45 posted on 03/22/2012 5:51:30 AM PDT by PzLdr ("The Emperor is not as forgiving as I am" - Darth Vader)
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To: CougarGA7
I would certainly hope that there is more to his opposition than MacArthur’s patented arrogance but, like you, I haven’t looked at this any further than an analysis I did on the details of his citation itself over two years ago.

Life isn't fair and one is frequently reminded of that as men awarded valor medals say what they did didn't deserve mention when compared against things they saw others do yet received no recognition for. So much depends on the disposition of the commander at that point in time.

As it pertains to Wainwrights MOH, I would begin any analysis by allowing for the possibility that MacArthur had a personal metric based on his two previous MOH recommendations that had been blocked.

That Wainwright surrendered the entire archipelago probably played a role in MacArthur's mind. I don't know the answer but up until that point, had anyone been awarded a MOH that surrendered?

I also think MacArthur awarding Wainwright a DSC in Jan '42 for his service on Luzon and Bataan is also significant in that Wainwright's MOH citation specifically states that it is for his actions Between March '42 and May '42 after MacArthur was ordered to Australia. I can envision a number of different angles here.

The MOH may have amounted to a review and upgrade of the DSC when his service between March '42 and May '42 was also included. If true, he was still able to keep his DSC. Is this normal practice in event of an upgrade to also retain the lesser award? I don't know.

Having read none of the paper trail, I don't know but it would be interesting to learn when in relation to VJ-day Truman got involved with approving Wainwright's MOH.

Had it been filed away collecting dust between 1942 and mid 1945, I then think one would have to consider the mindset of Truman in light of reports by Americans recently freed from Japanese POW camps.

Someday, I'll look into these questions.

46 posted on 03/22/2012 6:11:13 AM PDT by fso301
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To: PzLdr

I don’t think anyone disagrees that Rommel was an effective and energetic tactical battlefield commander. It is his ability to wage war at the higher operational and strategic levels that is questioned. For example, with his headstrong impetuosity, I doubt he would have been able to have juggled his forces and conserved his units the way Manstein did at the “Miracle of the Donetz” in 1943. Some commanders, like Model, made the leap from tactical to operational commander, and excelled in both offensive and defensive battle. Rommel’s ideas of defensive battle were little better than Hitler’s.


47 posted on 03/22/2012 6:14:24 AM PDT by henkster (Andrew Breitbart would not have apologized.)
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To: PzLdr
She lobbied the Sec./War, and the senior brass.

But for which medals? 2 DSCs, 1 DSM, 6 silver stars, 2 wound stripes plus others, American and French. Was she responsible for some, or all of these?

You do know that she lived at the Thayer Hotel for all four years that Dougie was at West Point.

They were definitely devoted to each other but he was in West Point long before WWI when you said she lobbied for his medals so, I'm not seeing a connection.

And that her disapproval of Mrs. Dougie #1 contributed to Dougie’s divorcing her [the bride had been one of “Black Jac” Pershing’s mistresses, along with George Patton’s sister. Pershing gave an oil painting of the bride as a wedding gift to the then happy couple].

Might as well toss in the Filipina girlfriend/mistress but what do any of these things have to do with your statement that "Pinky" lobbied for some, or all of his WWI medals?

And Dougie’s mother got away with it because she was the widow of Gen. Arthur MacArthur, who had won the CMH in the Civil War.

Again, I don't see how you are connecting MacArthur's mother with his awards in WWI?

48 posted on 03/22/2012 6:26:58 AM PDT by fso301
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To: fso301

Yep!


49 posted on 03/22/2012 6:36:26 AM PDT by RJS1950 (The democrats are the "enemies foreign and domestic" cited in the federal oath)
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To: RJS1950; Homer_J_Simpson
Yep!

Very interesting. So, you believe MacArthur was as inept a commander as JFK. I'd be very interested in learning specifics as to why you believe MacArthur was so inept. Of course in the context of Homer's thread, let's try and limit ourselves to discussing MacArthur's record prior to March 1942.

50 posted on 03/22/2012 7:02:15 AM PDT by fso301
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