The competition.
Posted on 01/09/2012 5:33:28 AM PST by Wonder Warthog
On March 23, 1989, the international scientific environment, and not only that, was deeply surprised because of the abrupt announcement by two Scientists, one of them at world-class level (M. Fleischmann), that they had detected measurable, and unexplainable, excess energy after prolonged electrolysis of Heavy Water using Palladium (Pd) rods as cathode. Such a phenomenon, that cannot be ascribed to usual chemistry or physics reactions, was improperly given the odd name “cold fusion”, remembering similarities with the “muon-catalysed fusion” predicted (1952) by A. Sacharov and measured (1956) by L. Alvarez (Nobel Laureates): both fusion were realised at room temperatures and not at the “usual” several million of °C.
The results, apart from the initial enthusiasm, were generally considered with large scepticism from most of the science community because they were completely unexpected in theory, and poorly reproducible in the experiments. As a consequence, only the Researchers and a few Institutions continued the studies that got - mostly by chance - some good results and of, enough high, scientific quality.
Among them we mention NASA and John Bockris at A&M Texas, who started in July 1989 an investigation looking for occurring of usual Deuterium-Deuterium (D-D) fusion with emission of neutrons (i.e. strong force interaction). They did not find it but NASA detected unexplainable behaviour of Pd tube when heated at high temperatures (350°C) and Hydrogen (H2) or Deuterium (D2) gas were allowed to flow in and out. In short, the behaviour of energy production was as expected using H2 gas but completely unexpected with D2. Heat production was detected both in the incoming and out-coming phases of the gas: such effect was against any previous scientific experience! Such key results were not communicated immediately to the Scientific Community until, by chance, a report was found inside a drawer and wide-spread only in 2004. In December 2009 another similar experiment was performed, devoted to reconfirm the thermal anomalies found on 1989. The results, thanks to specific and improved instruments, were of even better quality. Again, the results were not made public until the document was found, by chance, on the web in August 2011. Recently, top level NASA Researchers are more “open” about their results produced “at home”.
Apart from such episodes, over one thousand Researchers, mainly in J, I, USA, RUS, CP, IND, F, D, continued such studies, usually with low budget constrains. Among them, the methodologies developed, models introduced and results obtained, by M. Srinivasan, Preparata-Del Giudice, A. Takahashi, P. Hagelstein, E. Storm, Chubb-Chubb, M. Kubre, Piantelli-Focardi, F. Celani, Y. Iwamura, G. Miley, T. Mizuno, De Ninno-Violante, H. Kozima, Larsen-Widom, X.Z. Li, J. Biberian, A. Huke, were especially innovative: published most of the results found or models developed. So, in spite of adverse conditions, the progress from the science point of view was remarkable: about theory, is “growing” a model based on weak force interaction.
A big step forward happened when, thanks to Y. Arata (Osaka Univ.-J), who, since 2002, introduced proper nano-materials (Pd, at size of 5-20 nm), dispersed in an anti-sintering matrix (ZrO2), and in contact to pressurised D2 gas. The results of Arata were the first ones fully reproduced by other scientists (A. Takahashi, A. Kitamura, Japan) and even using materials produced by an independent Industry (Santoku K.K.). Later, the original findings were even improved with better results thanks to new materials (based on ZrO2-Ni-Pd), always nano-sized, as prepared by B. Ahern (USA) and initially studied since 2005 by Arata.
As far as recent claims of very large excess power using “micro-nano-sized Nickel” interacting with H2 at high pressure and temperatures are concerned, coming from groups operating in Italy and Greece, we have to underline that both groups refused (because, according to them, patents/business constrains), up to now, independent tests of their apparatus: then, we cannot give scientific credit, as to-day, to their work. BTW, on November 2011, F. Celani asked to the Italian A. Rossi, through a widespread science magazine (Focus), to validate one of his 10kW's device. Even the public “persuasion” of the Nobel Laureate Brian Josephson was enough to get such device for scientific, fully independent, tests.
Nevertheless, we believe that so many evidences have been collected by serious Scientists up to now, that the reality of Low Energy Nuclear Reactions may be soon acknowledged by the whole scientific community, opening the way towards the fully exploration of their potential for practical applications and long term sustainability of this, practically infinite, energy source.
In these weeks our group, working with long and thin wires having the surface coated with micro-nano-particles, get re-confirmation of a phenomenon, by us, seldom observed in some previous experiments: the specific alloy used (Cu-Ni), that usually has Positive Temperature Coefficient (PTC) of the resistance, if absorbs large amount of Hydrogen, changes to Negative TC. Such phenomenon is correlated to anomalous heat production and increases as the anomalous heat increases. If such key phenomenon will be kept under full control, because its behaviour can be observed with simple instrumentation, it can be open the door to systematic work, worldwide, to find the “optimal” material and operating point.
http://www.22passi.it/downloads/Celani%20Abstract.doc
Translation” What benefits, when, how wide spread, how practical, how safe, how expensive?
NONSENSE AND BALDERDASH! Bunk, lies, and exaggeration. Fibs and prevarication. No truth to any of it.
That’s a poor translation.
Citing documents “found in a drawer,” or “found on the internet” is hardly reassuring about the validity of the resaults claimed.
Every single decision Obama makes is to harm America.
Every single decision Obama makes is to harm America.
I was inclined to think the same until some folks at NASA started taking it seriously. Remember, the list of people who were wrong about scientific advances is long and includes some prominent names (at least at the time of their skepticism). Examples: cars will never reach 60 MPH, powered flight is impossible, rockets won't work in space, controlled nuclear fission is impossible.
http://newenergytimes.com/v2/government/NASA/20110922NASA-Zawodny-GRC-LENR-Workshop.pdf
If it turns out to be practical, it will be the most significant energy discovery in history. One quote from the slides I linked:
Total replacement of fossil fuels for everything but synthetic organic chemistry
Powder..patch..ball FIRE!
Solid physical science that can open whole new materials energy research. Confirmation of effects observed with the physics to replicate every time consistently. Oh man and it would shut up the seagulls!
Every single decision Obama makes is to harm America.
But . . . but . . . it was published in a real science magazine, “Focus.” LOL!!!!!
Maybe. But every single decision Obama makes is to harm America.
As far as recent claims of very large excess power using “micro-nano-sized Nickel” interacting with H2 at high pressure and temperatures are concerned, coming from groups operating in Italy and Greece, we have to underline that both groups refused (because, according to them, patents/business constrains), up to now, independent tests of their apparatus: then, we cannot give scientific credit, as to-day, to their work. BTW, on November 2011, F. Celani asked to the Italian A. Rossi, through a widespread science magazine (Focus), to validate one of his 10kW's device. Even the public “persuasion” of the Nobel Laureate Brian Josephson was not enough to get such device for scientific, fully independent, tests.Based on this, Celani seems to be backing away from Rossi and Defkalion, which is probably a smart move on his part.
Jed Rothwell has written a book outlining some of the answers to your first two questions. I'm at work so don't have link handy (or many spare minutes). Will post later. At risk of turning this into a "Rossi" thread, your latter questions will be answered by this fall, when Rossi plans to offer individual home E-cats (10kw (heat only), $1000-$1500/unit). Combined heat/AC/electricity units to follow in about a year. Sold and installed through existing HVAC outlets (including Home Depot).
A good summation of the psycho-skeptic position. But don't you know that using a four-bit word like "prevarication" is dangerous???
Three questions though. Forget whether it's real or not, they're seeing something so lets assume it is real. With what you know, say in twenty years, are we all going to have home based LENR systems or is it going to be on the grid or both keeping in mind our wonderful NRC.
I've spent some free time skimming the Larsen-Widom theory and it seems that there is a simple way to prove it occurs and that is helium output, is that correct? When I've got time I'll read the whole thing.
Do any of the successful LENR experiments mentioned in the above posting, do any start with radioactive materiel? And, I know this sounds stupid but, can you drink heavy water?
Back in '89 it was easy to suppress P&F but now too many are involved. I hope for LENR's sake, Rossi has something or it will have a serious negative effect on getting funding for this work since labs seem to be in a vicious competition to get funding, especially after seeing what they did to Taleyarkhan not to mention what MIT did. I'm no believer in Peak Oil seeing as how previously played out wells seem to be refilling themselves but this is just what we need although I wouldn't have a problem if they went on a crash building program for 100 already proven fission reactors.
Although this is only opinion and everyone already knows everyone else's opinion and facts on Rossi so it would be better to not start another 100 post flame war where we just go back and forth. But, I feel that Rossi owes it to these other researchers to prove his device once and for all. He'll still get credit and probably an incredible amount of money as well as funding for a complete lab.
I would so much like this to be real, even if it takes another twenty years to get it commercially viable.
We'll see how popular he is then, especially if he's still living high on the hog (which can't last forever) while everyone else is living on soup, does he not realize even his supporters don't want to starve and live in a crime zone?
I remember reading that when the Deutsche Mark was so devalued it took a billion marks to buy a loaf of bread. One report said that someone had abandoned a basket full of marks to steal the basket.
The way I would do it is to take the researchers that Celani mentions in the abstract, and look up their papers on LENR-CANR.org. Work that impresses a "cold fusion physicist" (which Celani is), is probably a better measure of "what's important" than my opinion would be.
"Three questions though. Forget whether it's real or not, they're seeing something so lets assume it is real. With what you know, say in twenty years, are we all going to have home based LENR systems or is it going to be on the grid or both keeping in mind our wonderful NRC.
Given the very recent data coming from the top researchers, even if Rossi ultimately proves to be a fraud, I think we will have practical CF devices, and with a much shorter time frame than 20 years out. Whether they will be "on the grid" or "become the grid" is an economical question that I don't feel qualified to comment on.
"I've spent some free time skimming the Larsen-Widom theory and it seems that there is a simple way to prove it occurs and that is helium output, is that correct? When I've got time I'll read the whole thing."
I haven't spent a whole lot of time on Larsen-Widom theory, because I'm not much of a theorist. BUT, AFAIK, every CF researcher who has bothered to look for helium has found it, and in signficantly higher levels than in "blank runs"). Heat and helium seem to be two of the few "very repeatable" things about CF experments.
"Do any of the successful LENR experiments mentioned in the above posting, do any start with radioactive materiel? And, I know this sounds stupid but, can you drink heavy water?"
I'm not aware of anybody who has tried using tritiated water as a "fuel" either in an electrolytic or gas-loaded cell. I suspect probably someone in the DOD has and, if done, is probably classified "top secret". Yes, you "can" drink heavy water (at least in small amounts). I've seen it postulated that if you got enough of it, that it could screw up the kinetics of enzymatic reactions enough to make you very ill (or very dead).
"Back in '89 it was easy to suppress P&F but now too many are involved. I hope for LENR's sake, Rossi has something or it will have a serious negative effect on getting funding for this work since labs seem to be in a vicious competition to get funding, especially after seeing what they did to Taleyarkhan not to mention what MIT did. I'm no believer in Peak Oil seeing as how previously played out wells seem to be refilling themselves but this is just what we need although I wouldn't have a problem if they went on a crash building program for 100 already proven fission reactors.
Even more important than funding, Rossi has drawn the other researchers back out of hiding and given overall CF research at least a SMALL amount of favorable response.
I think a lot of these guys (cf. Piantelli) have just been sitting on positive results because they didn't want to face the "P&F gauntlet". Rossi has given them the cover to "go public".
"Although this is only opinion and everyone already knows everyone else's opinion and facts on Rossi so it would be better to not start another 100 post flame war where we just go back and forth. But, I feel that Rossi owes it to these other researchers to prove his device once and for all. He'll still get credit and probably an incredible amount of money as well as funding for a complete lab.
I agree, but Rossi disagrees, and he has the ultimate trump cards. But given his new position on "consumer" E-cats, he's gonna have to open up to "somebody" sooner or later.
Regulatory agencies, if nobody else.
"I would so much like this to be real, even if it takes another twenty years to get it commercially viable.
Yup. I want our descendants to have the "high energy" future, not the "back to the caves" one that the greens want.
Castro didn't need to. Mugabe, Stalin, Kim Il Jung, they all didn't need to.
He could simply take over, and there'd be no need to.
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