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Is it sinful to kill in self-defense?
The San Fernando Valley NRA Members' Council ^ | 7/14/2013

Posted on 07/14/2013 8:05:45 PM PDT by Redcloak

Is it sinful to kill in self-defense?

This is a topic that I’ve been wanting to write about for a while now and this rant from NEA Vice President Lily Eskelsen Garcia got me thinking about the subject again. At the Netroots Nation conference,  Garcia said of gun rights supporters…

“I’m not an ordained minister; I’m not a theologian, but these guys are going to hell.”

I’m not an ordained minister or a theologian either, but what does God think of those of us who own firearms? Did He really give us a right to keep and bear arms; to have deadly weapons?

Ultimately, the right to keep and bear arms is about the People retaining the ability to use deadly force to defend themselves, as a group or as individuals, from harm. If we are endowed by our Creator with the right to life, then the it follows that we have the right as individuals to possess the means necessary to defend ourselves from those intent upon harming us and threatening our lives. That threat may come from a criminal or from a tyrant, but the concept is the same; the right to possess defensive arms is a basic human right and one that the 2nd Amendment recognizes and protects.

But the question many people of faith ask is this: Is it moral to use deadly force in self defense? Do we sin against God by killing in self defense?


(Excerpt) Read more at sanfernandovalleynra.org ...


TOPICS: Chit/Chat; Politics; Religion; Society
KEYWORDS: banglist; guncontrol; secondamendment; selfdefense
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This had been floating around in my head for a while. Lily Eskelsen Garcia's comments and more recent events pushed me to complete it.
1 posted on 07/14/2013 8:05:46 PM PDT by Redcloak
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To: Redcloak

No


2 posted on 07/14/2013 8:06:32 PM PDT by clamper1797 (Evil WILL flourish when good men WILL not act)
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To: Redcloak

Nope. Not at all.


3 posted on 07/14/2013 8:08:13 PM PDT by Secret Agent Man (Gone Galt; Not averse to Going Bronson.)
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To: Redcloak

I’d prefer talk to God about it later rather than sooner.


4 posted on 07/14/2013 8:08:42 PM PDT by Mastador1 (I'll take a bad dog over a good politician any day!)
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To: Redcloak
People have debated it for a long time. But, remember, the Bible makes a distinction between kill and murder ...
5 posted on 07/14/2013 8:08:52 PM PDT by Lmo56 (If ya wanna run with the big dawgs - ya gotta learn to piss in the tall grass ...)
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To: Redcloak
"But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one."
6 posted on 07/14/2013 8:11:09 PM PDT by Licensed-To-Carry (Hey Obama! It's all your fault now, you own it.)
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To: Lmo56
I would certainly protect myself or loved ones with force if faced with immenate danger! It is no time for "TURN THE OTHER CHEEK"!
7 posted on 07/14/2013 8:13:31 PM PDT by joyce11111 (he police minute)
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To: Redcloak

Nope. Please refer to the Catechism of the Catholic Church 2263-2267.

From the same good people who assembled the Holy Bible itself.


8 posted on 07/14/2013 8:13:36 PM PDT by rwilson99 (Please tell me how the words "shall not perish and have everlasting life" would NOT apply to Mary.)
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To: Redcloak

Only an idiot or an evil person with an agenda
for control would believe such a ludicrous thing.


9 posted on 07/14/2013 8:15:07 PM PDT by nvscanman
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To: Lmo56

That’s why I went back to the original text; especially the Hebrew. The Hebrew word “ratsach” (ra-tsak) is what was translated into the English language of 1611 as “kill”. My guess is that “kill” meant murder to many Englishmen in 1611; so at the time, that was a valid translation. In 2013, we wouldn’t choose “kill” as the correct English word. We’d choose “murder”.


10 posted on 07/14/2013 8:16:23 PM PDT by Redcloak (Winter is coming.)
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To: Redcloak

The fact that Peter carried his sword and attacked with it when Jesus was arrested, tells me that it was always with him, and was for self defense, even though in that particular incident, Jesus didn’t want defending or the sword used.


11 posted on 07/14/2013 8:17:12 PM PDT by ansel12 ( Santorum appeared on CBS and pronounced George Zimmerman guilty of murder, first degree. March-2012)
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To: Redcloak
Is it sinful to kill in self-defense?

It is righteous and sanctioned by scripture to beat the
bloody hell out of blogpimps and fags. If they die as a
result they're just reaping the fruit they have themselves sown.

12 posted on 07/14/2013 8:18:29 PM PDT by humblegunner (Creepy Ass Cracker)
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To: Redcloak

No, it’s not a sin to kill in self defense.

God made my Soul, and for awhile gives me this Earthly body. HE has a time limit on my life, not another mortal.


13 posted on 07/14/2013 8:19:04 PM PDT by Shadowstrike (Be polite, Be professional, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet.)
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To: Licensed-To-Carry
"But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one."

And bear in mind that the sword was the AK-47 or M4 of its day. It was the standard issue infantry weapon of the time.

14 posted on 07/14/2013 8:19:14 PM PDT by Redcloak (Winter is coming.)
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To: Redcloak

The “Arm-Chair Theologians” always throw out the commandment “Thou Shalt Not Kill.” If “killing” another human being was a “sin” then God would be full of “sin” by His act of the flood, Sodom and Gomorrah etc etc. The correct interpretation of the commandment is “Thou Shall Not Murder.” Defending life with lethal force is a judgment call that can be justified when warranted.


15 posted on 07/14/2013 8:19:18 PM PDT by missnry (The truth will set you free ... and drive liberals crazy!)
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To: Licensed-To-Carry
Right, and Peter obviously was allowed to carry his sword when he was with Jesus.

Except for martyrdom for your faith, my personal opinion is you should kill to defend yourself and your family. Also to stop someone else from killing like yur neighbor. The Jews came to that conclusion after WWII. Never again will they be led like sheep to the slaughter.

To my way of thinking it would be a sin to let harm come to anyone and you had the means to prevent it. It's also meritorious to lay down your life so someone else might live in certain situations.

Now if the police are harming someone, once I would have said you don't interfere. Well, you still don't interfere if you don't want to get shot or seriously manhandled but that was before I saw and learned some things about police brutality, excessive force.

16 posted on 07/14/2013 8:20:38 PM PDT by Aliska
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To: Lmo56

Original Hebrew if I recall was “Thou shalt not murder”. As in maliciously. If it was a sin how many millions of good men would be in hell due to war? Murder on the other hand is a premeditated. This is just my opinion.


17 posted on 07/14/2013 8:21:38 PM PDT by crazydad (Obamamohamed is a traitor)
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To: Redcloak

Is it sinful to let yourself be killed if you are able to defend yourself?


18 posted on 07/14/2013 8:22:19 PM PDT by SkyDancer (Live your life in such a way that the Westboro church will want to picket your funeral.)
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To: Shadowstrike

I would argue that you not only have a right to defend the life that God gave you, but a duty to do so.


19 posted on 07/14/2013 8:23:04 PM PDT by Redcloak (Winter is coming.)
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To: Redcloak
Is it sinful to kill in self-defense?

No, but it's sinful not to.

20 posted on 07/14/2013 8:23:28 PM PDT by smoothsailing
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To: Redcloak
Certainly not! Life - the first right - its preservation the prime directive.

I will not be part of the mass suicide that describes the contemporary ethos of the media, Academia, and of course, "our" government!



"Dia shábháil ar fad anseo!"

Genuflectimus non ad principem sed ad Principem Pacis!

Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name. (Isaiah 49:1 KJV)

21 posted on 07/14/2013 8:34:45 PM PDT by ConorMacNessa (HM/2 USN, 3/5 Marines RVN 1969 - St. Michael the Archangel defend us in Battle!)
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To: Redcloak

No! It is sinful to not value life and protect it from those that wish to end it. It is exactly why we also are against killing babies, something the liberals termed “abortion”.


22 posted on 07/14/2013 8:40:54 PM PDT by CodeToad (Liberals are bloodsucking ticks. We need to light the matchstick to burn them off. -786 +969)
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To: Redcloak

A good read: erudite and unaffected.
.


23 posted on 07/14/2013 8:51:41 PM PDT by mrsmith (Dumb sluts: Lifeblood of the Media, Backbone of the Democrat Party!)
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To: Redcloak

#10

I agree.
Languages change over time and words have different meanings today than they did 400 years ago.

Nowadays, the word ‘kill’ simply means ‘to cause the death of a living organism.’ Something or someone was alive and now they’re dead due to some action or inaction on your part. How and why is irrelevant.

A more correct translation into modern English would be -
“Thou Shalt Not Murder” or “Thou Shalt Not Commit Murder”
where ‘Murder’ is the killing of the innocent.

It is not Murder to kill in combat, to kill in legitimate defense of yourself or another, or to kill the truly wicked.


24 posted on 07/14/2013 8:54:40 PM PDT by servo1969
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To: humblegunner

You’re right as usual - Redcloak is a blog pimp.


25 posted on 07/14/2013 8:56:08 PM PDT by Marcella ((Prepping can save your life today. I am a Christian, not a Muslim.))
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To: Redcloak

No.


26 posted on 07/14/2013 8:57:50 PM PDT by PistolPaknMama
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To: Redcloak

I don’t have the Bible sitting front of me but in the Old Testament (probably Deuteronomy or Leviticus) the laws regarding premeditated murder, manslaughter, and killing in self defense are all spelled out in detail.

Jesus said He did not come to do away with the Law, the Prophets, or the Commandments so the principles regarding self-defense are still in force.

As some of you mentioned, the teachings of Jesus regarding “turning the other cheek” have to do with your Christian witness, not in a situation where’s you are defending your family, a helpless person, or or country in a time of war.

Even on a case of being attacked physically because of your beliefs, I don’t believe that Jesus is commanding us to just stand there and take it. The Apostle Paul asserted his rights several times as a Roman citizen - once when he was about to be beaten he questioned the officer in charge and reminded him that what they were about to do was illegal - the officer ordered a stand down because he knew what Paul said was correct.

Jesus ‘s teachings in the Sermon on the Mt often use exaggerations to
make a point. For example He tells His listeners that unless they “hate” their mother and father they cannot be His disciples. Now Jesus did not literally mean that we are to hate your family, He meant that in comparison to their love for Him, their love for Him should be so great and deep that their love for their parents would seem like hatred.

He also uses these same type of exaggerations with the “turning the other cheek”, the “walk the second mile”, “give to whoever asks”, etc.

Now don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying Jesus doesn’t want His followers to be like Him and show radical love to even our enemies for that is exactly what He wants from us, but He never meant that one could not defend oneself when necessary.

Of course, there are Christians who are total pacifists and look to those very same passages as proof that Jesus meant all those commands to be taken literally. But, most conservative Christian scholars say that Jesus meant those commands to mean that His children are to be radically different than the world in their behavior, but not to the extreme where you don’t defend yourself or your family. Jesus was not speaking to those issues.


27 posted on 07/14/2013 9:01:00 PM PDT by Nevadan
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To: clamper1797
And another thing!

Where do the Atheist, Agnostics, and Secularists get to talk about sin?

In my somewhat quaint view of the universe, the concept of sin presupposes the existence of a Deity, leaving to those who do not acknowledge a Deity only human made law.

But, of course, I'm just another hidebound apologist for the concepts underlying "Western Civilization" - that body of learning gleaned though thousands of years and passed down to us by anonymous monastics in inhospitable scriptoria though centuries of pagan assault.

Sorry to vent - We're in a World turned upside down - I can't believe how bad things have gotten since the time of my youth.

We need to find our way home, and that way is not through the dis-establishment of traditional matrimony; it is not through the banishment of our God from public discourse; and it is not through unilateral disarmament in the face of Islamist Terrorism, Russian resurgence, or the emergence of China as a major military power.


I categorically reject this option! Have at them, and if we fall, we fall in battle having fought the Good Fight!



"Dia shábháil ar fad anseo!"

Genuflectimus non ad principem sed ad Principem Pacis!

Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name. (Isaiah 49:1 KJV)

28 posted on 07/14/2013 9:01:28 PM PDT by ConorMacNessa (HM/2 USN, 3/5 Marines RVN 1969 - St. Michael the Archangel defend us in Battle!)
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To: Redcloak

No.
That would mean it was a sin for America to stop the Nazi from destroying the world.
That would mean it is a sin to be a Police Officer or a Soldier.


29 posted on 07/14/2013 9:03:13 PM PDT by SECURE AMERICA (Where can I go to sign up for the American Revolution 2013 and the Crusades 2013?)
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To: ansel12

Bingo! i had a chat recently with a member of my church and suggested that Peter was the first advocate for concealed carry. Of course, she looked at me with a dumbfounded look on her face.


30 posted on 07/14/2013 9:03:47 PM PDT by The_Sword_of_Groo (My world view is accurately expressed in the lyrics of " The Fightin' Side of Me")
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To: Redcloak
You have a moral responsibility to defend yourself from evil. To let that evil prevail without a fight is unconscionable as it encourages it further.
31 posted on 07/14/2013 9:14:25 PM PDT by Crucial (Tolerance at the expense of equal treatment is the path to tyranny.)
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To: The_Sword_of_Groo

I’m also under the impression that all men traveled with their own knife, it would be a primary eating utensil and everyday tool, and that even Jesus probably carried one for eating, even as a guest in some homes.

While not necessarily carried as a weapon, my impression is that in that era, Jesus very well could have carried a knife, if not him for some reason (like being Jesus), then all the other members of his party would have.


32 posted on 07/14/2013 9:21:05 PM PDT by ansel12 ( Santorum appeared on CBS and pronounced George Zimmerman guilty of murder, first degree. March-2012)
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To: Redcloak

Sinful? It is a virtuous act.


33 posted on 07/14/2013 9:22:50 PM PDT by Trod Upon (Every penny given to film and TV media companies goes right into enemy coffers. Starve them out!)
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To: Redcloak
"But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one."

And bear in mind that the sword was the AK-47 or M4 of its day. It was the standard issue infantry weapon of the time.

I'll have to take a bit of exception to your analogy, as while swords *were* standard issue within the Roman Legions that the Lord would have been quite familiar with during His earthly sojourn, it was a secondary, and not the primary 'issue weapon' which would have been the 'pilum', or spear. *THAT* weapon would have been the M4/AK47 of its time...

the infowarrior

34 posted on 07/14/2013 9:24:38 PM PDT by infowarrior
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To: Redcloak; Lmo56; joyce11111; crazydad
"This had been floating around in my head for a while. Lily Eskelsen Garcia's comments and more recent events pushed me to complete it."

Based on my word study, within the context of Exodus Ch. 20 - using Strong's Concordance primarily:

Exodus 20:1-17 (NIV)

13 “You shall not murder.

ALSO SEE: The ten commandments are spoken by Jehovah (Biblos Interlinear Bible)
35 posted on 07/14/2013 9:29:30 PM PDT by uncommonsense (Liberals see what they believe; Conservatives believe what they see.)
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To: Redcloak

Hell, no.


36 posted on 07/14/2013 9:31:33 PM PDT by Albion Wilde ("Remember... the first revolutionary was Satan."--Russian Orthodox Archpriest Dmitry Smirnov)
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To: Redcloak

Exodus 20:13 “Thou shalt not kill.”

Hebrew word translated “kill” in the King James is “ratsach”
- to murder, slay, kill

“Murder is the unlawful killing of another human being, usually premeditated. The Hebrew word ratsach, always translated as “murder,” is used for this commandment to contrast this prohibition with other forms of killing such as accidental death, war, self-defense, capital punishment and the killing of animals. “

http://pastorkenneth.wordpress.com/2012/12/19/ratsach-murder-bible-study/


37 posted on 07/14/2013 9:33:39 PM PDT by BwanaNdege ("To learn who rules over you simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize"- Voltaire)
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To: BwanaNdege

Wow, no one has posted this yet?

Ecclesiastes 3

King James Version (KJV)

3 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;

3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;

4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;

5 A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;

6 A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;

7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;

8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

9 What profit hath he that worketh in that wherein he laboureth?

10 I have seen the travail, which God hath given to the sons of men to be exercised in it.

11 He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.

12 I know that there is no good in them, but for a man to rejoice, and to do good in his life.

13 And also that every man should eat and drink, and enjoy the good of all his labour, it is the gift of God.

14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.

15 That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past.

16 And moreover I saw under the sun the place of judgment, that wickedness was there; and the place of righteousness, that iniquity was there.

17 I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.

18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.

19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

22 Wherefore I perceive that there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his own works; for that is his portion: for who shall bring him to see what shall be after him?


38 posted on 07/14/2013 9:38:48 PM PDT by Las Vegas Ron (Rats vs. GOPe = Same train, different speed.)
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To: SkyDancer
Is it sinful to let yourself be killed if you are able to defend yourself?

That was basically the question I had. That would essentially be suicide wouldn't it?

39 posted on 07/14/2013 9:41:27 PM PDT by TigersEye ("No man left behind" is more than an Army Ranger credo it's the character of America.)
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To: Redcloak

The thought that I would hesitate to defend myself based on religion is insulting.


40 posted on 07/14/2013 9:43:53 PM PDT by BigCinBigD (...Was that okay?)
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To: Redcloak

No.


41 posted on 07/14/2013 9:50:32 PM PDT by Seeing More Clearly Now
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To: Redcloak
Talk to Moses.

He had that one guy stoned to death for working (picking up sticks) on the Sabbath.

42 posted on 07/14/2013 10:00:53 PM PDT by GBA (Our obamanation: Romans 1:18-32)
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To: Redcloak

Nope.

I have a right to my life and no one has the right to take it or degrade the quality of it.


43 posted on 07/14/2013 10:27:07 PM PDT by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously, you won't live through it anyway)
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To: humblegunner

You gotta learn to speak yer mind....

Maybe that shot you took in the head, from your 4th of July Rodeo had an unintended effect.

LOL

Showed that to some non Freepers today at the range and they were laughing....


44 posted on 07/14/2013 10:29:45 PM PDT by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously, you won't live through it anyway)
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To: Redcloak
A wise man I knew had this sermon about the 6th Commandment. I hope this clears up the issue for you.
45 posted on 07/14/2013 10:31:42 PM PDT by Yosemitest (It's Simple ! Fight, ... or Die !)
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To: Redcloak
The original injunction in the Ten Commandments given by Jehovah to Moses was; “Thou shalt not murder” and that is quite different from the oft repeated “Thou shalt not kill”. Obviously there is a huge difference. Self-defense was recognized as essential, but murdering one’s own people was not sanctioned.
46 posted on 07/14/2013 10:37:19 PM PDT by MasterGunner01
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To: Redcloak
Reminds me of a song I once heard on the radio “If defending myself is wrong, I don't want to be right...”

Ok, lame attempt at humor.

First of all, the story implies just by owning a gun you're going to hell. No. I come from a family of great people, generations of which I don't believe are in hell.

And if I didn't arm myself, as a female, and didn't protect my two daughters if necessary, that's when I believe God wouldn't be very happy with me. When confronted with evil, I believe God would want you to protect the innocent, if it's yourself or others.

My brother used to say “yeah, the meek shall inherit the earth because they'll be well armed. Otherwise, it's not going to turn out so well for the meek.”

47 posted on 07/14/2013 10:42:50 PM PDT by MacMattico
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To: Las Vegas Ron
Forget Exodus 20 says not to commit murder (trə·ṣāḥ) , but Ecclesiastes 3 says:

" To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
A time to kill (la·hă·rōḡ) , and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up"

SEE also:

The ten commandments are spoken by Jehovah (Biblos Interlinear Bible)

"shall not murder"

48 posted on 07/14/2013 11:10:00 PM PDT by uncommonsense (Liberals see what they believe; Conservatives believe what they see.)
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To: Redcloak

I cannot believe this question is even asked. Luke 22:35-38 says:

35 [Jesus] asked them [the eleven apostles], “When I sent you out without a purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?”
They said, “No, not a thing.”
36 He said to them, “But now the one who has a purse must take it, and likewise a bag. And the one who has no sword must sell his cloak and buy one. 37 For I tell you, this scripture must be fulfilled in me: ‘And he was numbered among the lawless’; and indeed what is written about me is being fulfilled.”
38 They [the disciples] said, “See, Lord, here are two swords.”
“It is enough,” he replied. (NRSV)

The writers of our Constitution recognized the value of self-protection when they wrote the Second Amendment. They believed that the right to life includes the right to protect life. Not only are too many ignorant of the thinking behind the Second Amendment, so also are they ignorant of the teachings of the Bible.


49 posted on 07/14/2013 11:22:12 PM PDT by jonrick46 (The opium of Communists: other people's money.)
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To: uncommonsense
“You shall not murder ..."

So, there is a difference between killing and murder in the Bible ...

50 posted on 07/15/2013 12:06:34 AM PDT by Lmo56 (If ya wanna run with the big dawgs - ya gotta learn to piss in the tall grass ...)
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