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Libertarianism & Christianity
Faith Facts Publishing ^ | January 5, 2013 | Faith Facts

Posted on 01/06/2013 3:43:37 PM PST by grumpa

We have noticed many conservative Christians these days claiming to hold to a libertarian political philosophy. Libertarianism is the idea that government should allow complete freedom, except in the case when one person directly harms another. While this often sounds appealing to Christians, we see see a dangerous clash of worldviews in trying to mix Christianity with libertarianism. We think that “Christian libertarians” have been unwittingly duped into adopting a philosophy that has much in common with liberal secularists--and is contrary to the Bible at key points. Libertarianism and Christianity really do not mix like some think. Among the problems are these:

(Excerpt) Read more at faithfacts.org ...


TOPICS: Government; Politics; Religion
KEYWORDS: abortion; ayn; christianity; faithandphilosophy; libertarianism; libertarians; medicalmarijuana; openborders; rand
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Freepers may also enjoy our feature articles on Christianity and the Culture, including those on the Bible and Government, Gay Rights, and Socialism: http://www.faithfacts.org/christ-and-the-culture.
1 posted on 01/06/2013 3:43:50 PM PST by grumpa
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To: grumpa
Freepers may also enjoy our feature articles

"Our"?

So you have a stake in this blog.

Why have you excerpted your own content?

What are you paid per hit? Where does that money go?

2 posted on 01/06/2013 3:47:29 PM PST by humblegunner
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To: grumpa

I do think that many of these observations have substance, but Christ did not establish a political kingdom nor a political philosophy. His Kingdom is not of this world, and he refused to be made a secular judge. Jesus was not a libertarian, liberal, conservative, communist, anarchist or whatever political structure my exist. As far as selfishness goes, Christians believe in God BECAUSE they believe that is better for them if not in this world then n the next. If a person knew for certain that he was going to Hell but still loved God, I would consider that an unselfish act. Ayn Rand was an Atheist and many of her ideas were developed from other Atheists, such as Nietzsche. I would say that Ayn is a female version of Nietzsche.


3 posted on 01/06/2013 4:02:50 PM PST by Nemoque
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To: humblegunner
Dear Humblegunner:

Where does your money go? Where does your money come from, and how much is it? Oh, where do you attend church, and do you contribute to it?

Doesn't seem as if you actually read the blog other than to challenge the enterprise of Christian people--a man and wife.

Or are you simply one of the FR anti-Christian bigots?
4 posted on 01/06/2013 4:10:20 PM PST by righttackle44 (Take scalps. Leave the bodies as a warning.)
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To: humblegunner

that would seem like an astute observation


5 posted on 01/06/2013 4:11:56 PM PST by sten (fighting tyranny never goes out of style)
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To: grumpa

I am sorry to say, but I think the article referred to in the first post is nonsense.

It has the appearance or tone of a reasoned argument, but is built almost entirely on straw man and ad hominem logical fallacies. Instead of analyzing the essence of Libertarianism, it picks on particular individuals, or beliefs that some individuals who call themselves Libertarians.

The logic of the article is similar to statements like, “You shouldn’t drink milk because many people who are anti-religious drink milk.” This article is saying that you shouldn’t embrace Libertarianism because some individuals who are Libertarians are anti-religious or secularists.

Just because you don’t embrace all the beliefs of all the individuals that ascribe to Libertarianism does not mean that Libertarianism is incompatible, contrary or harmful to religious beliefs.


6 posted on 01/06/2013 4:18:43 PM PST by pjd
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To: grumpa

Amen! What is worse is that these Libertines have adopted much of the Christian Lingo, while hiding their truer Atheistic beliefs. They are a cancer attacking from within.


7 posted on 01/06/2013 4:18:57 PM PST by Waywardson (I did not vote for that pro-abortionist candidate!)
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To: AdmSmith; AnonymousConservative; Berosus; bigheadfred; Bockscar; ColdOne; Convert from ECUSA; ...

Thanks grumpa. From the FRchives:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1576136/posts?page=17#17


8 posted on 01/06/2013 4:21:39 PM PST by SunkenCiv (Lad I don't know where ya been but I see you won first prize.)
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http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1522222/posts?page=10#10


9 posted on 01/06/2013 4:24:05 PM PST by SunkenCiv (Romney would have been worse, if you're a dumb ass.)
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http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/620150/posts


10 posted on 01/06/2013 4:26:10 PM PST by SunkenCiv (Romney would have been worse, if you're a dumb ass.)
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To: grumpa

Sodom and Gomorrah probably had plenty of libertarians.


11 posted on 01/06/2013 4:27:42 PM PST by ansel12
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To: righttackle44
Where does your money go?

Some of it goes to keep Free Republic running.

Where does your money come from

General cleverness, hard work and learning.

Doesn't seem as if you actually read the blog

I sure didn't. I noted that it was excerpted needlessly
and formed all the conclusions I needed at that point.

When some blogger attempts to use FR as an advertising platform, I might make mention of it.

Have you some problem with that?

12 posted on 01/06/2013 4:32:42 PM PST by humblegunner
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13 posted on 01/06/2013 4:34:43 PM PST by RedMDer (Those that believe in gun free zones should wear GUN FREE ZONE T-SHIRTS.)
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To: grumpa

BFLR..


14 posted on 01/06/2013 4:39:13 PM PST by Joe 6-pack (Que me amat, amet et canem meum)
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To: grumpa
The difference between Conservatives/Social Conservatives and Libertarians is their view of the origins of the Constitution. For the Conservative the Constitution was inspired by the Almighty and based on natural law. The Libertarians see the constitution as a contract....
15 posted on 01/06/2013 4:59:05 PM PST by montanajoe
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To: grumpa

The only rule of libertarianism is not to initiate force against another. That’s it. I have no problem seeing that as consistent with Christianity. It’s certainly not the whole of Christianity but it is certainly compatible.


16 posted on 01/06/2013 5:03:11 PM PST by muir_redwoods (Don't fire until you see the blue of their helmets)
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To: grumpa
I have some sympathy for this argument,
but the article uses flawed reasoning

Libertarianism is ultimately arbitrary. It is an attempt to define morality without God. But as Dostoevsky said, “If there is no God, everything is permitted.”

Physics can be defined without God, and be useful, just not complete. Physics does not permit “Everything”, nor does libertarianism. Libertarian Behavior is circumscribed by Natural Law, which is a subset of God's Law.

Any philosophy (whether Jean-Paul Sartre's Existentialism, Darwin's Evolution, or Ayn Rand's Objectivism) that has a non-theistic foundation ultimately bumps into the problem of nihilism.

True, but just as true as Physics. Again, Physics may be useful without being Complete. The “Big Bang Theory” is a useful model for the beginning of the Universe, but Begs the question of “Why” it happened, or “What” caused it.

Libertarianism inevitably interferes with the individual Christian's reliance on his faith as the sole lens from which to see the world.

Again, incomplete. One can use a model for behavior while also realizing it is “Incomplete”. Physicists do this frequently.

Morality should be defined solely by the Bible.

Difficult to project on a society that is not Christian.

Libertarians fail to appreciate the huge positive influence Christianity has had on America.

Non-Christians, as well as Christians, can be blind for a wide array of reasons

Libertarian Christians usually think that Christians can segregate their faith—their personal faith relegated to their private lives.

Again wrong, I am under command to be kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, to do justly, love mercy, and walk humbly. I an under command To Love the Lord thy God, and to love thy neighbor as thyself. It is difficult to project these commands on a non-Christian however. I MUST do these these things, and much more, but that does not mean I can compel others to do the same. Compelled Love is not Love, Compelled Kindness is not Kindness. I do these things precisely because I have put myself under God's Command Voluntarily.

Our COMPASSION as Christians demands that we institute biblical values in society.

Demanding Virtue is no Virtue at all. It is called Slavery

Libertarianism is at its core a selfish worldview.

Libertarianism, IMHO, permits true selfless acts, by removing Earthly compulsion, without voluntary submission, to God.

I have great sympathy with the author. He is correct that God's Law is the only Law that matters ultimately on this Earth. Christian Libertarians believe, I think, that submission to God's Law must be an act of Free Will, or it becomes Slavery.

The Libertarian Model, I think, is an attempt to guide a society by Natural Law. A Christian may well see this as "Useful" but "Incomplete". Statist Models are useful also, but a Libertarian might argue they project enslavement by Caesar (Government)

17 posted on 01/06/2013 5:03:35 PM PST by HangnJudge
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To: grumpa

Coming form the Mountain West, where both Libertarianism and Christianity are very well represented, I see no problem with their mutual compatibility... In fact, I see it as a conservative necessity to carry BOTH in conscience:

Civil-libertarian thought helps to keep ‘social justice’ out of Christianity - Christians have no problem using big government in order to ‘help’ the downtrodden. as perfectly demonstrated by Huckabee’s mercurial rise...

And Christianity prevents the austerity and descent into anarchy that libertarianism in it’s pure form predictably will produce.

It is my honest opinion that Conservatism is not Conservatism without Christian and libertarian principles (in friendly opposition) in the mix.


18 posted on 01/06/2013 5:17:10 PM PST by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: grumpa

I am an American, half-breed of Mojave and German descent. (Can’t get more Native Son then THAT, can you?)

I am a Viet vet, and a Cold War vet. I served MY country, and did MY duty, proudly.

I am a Libertarian, by choice.

I was raised to believe that, as an adult, you make this world, and this country, MY country, a better place for those that come after me.

As an American, any and all questions of my particular religious foundations, teachings, and philosphy, shall only be told to those “that have a need to know”.

I take offense to this article, as it has been written from the author’s view of, “Thank you for your efforts in the attempt to vote out Obama. Your services are no longer needed. Buh-Bye.”

This author has pointed towards Libertarianism, and Libertarians, and decried, “WITCH!!!”

This ‘article’ smacks of Christian Dominionism, and is another twist of the tired cliche, “Either you are with me, or you are against me.”

The author spoke that Jesus came to ‘repeal the laws’. I believe it is his very words, that ‘I come to fulfill the law.’

While the author chose to label Ayn Rand an atheist, and attempt so carefully to put Libertarians next to, or sitting on the ledge, of the same box, by reason of association, is a crime. Yes, there are a few self-proclaimed Libertarians that are atheists, but to just label us all in that manner, is a display of bigotry.

The author must begin to gnash their teeth, and quiver, and moan in disgust, when someone, anyone, starts talking about Jeffersonian ideals, too.

We Libertarians are rabid Constitutionalists. This must truly froth the author’s mind, as such documents must be divinely inspired, and yet held to bosoms and minds of those, that the author clearly disparages!!!

Lastly, in a language, from long ago, I give you this blessing:
“Fie on Thee, oh putrescent image of man!”


19 posted on 01/06/2013 5:34:05 PM PST by Terry L Smith
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To: grumpa
There are arguments against extreme libertarianism, but this article makes a poor case, and is poorly written.

There are not large problems between libertarians and Christians. Libertarian ideas of freedom clash with some of the corrupt people in power in Christendom.

Christianity is fine. The authoritarian hierarchy (Pharisees) of most of Christendom should try practicing it some time.

20 posted on 01/06/2013 5:55:30 PM PST by SaxxonWoods (....Let It Burn....)
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To: grumpa

Hate to say it, but many Libertarians I know are rabidly anti-Christian. They see no reason why Christian morality or even Jewish ethics should be part of society and show no appreciation for how those same said morals and ethics helped build America.


21 posted on 01/06/2013 6:18:54 PM PST by Amberdawn
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To: grumpa

Barf.. Tell that to Gary North.


22 posted on 01/06/2013 7:11:02 PM PST by foundedonpurpose (It's time for a fundamental restoration, of our country's principles!)
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To: Amberdawn

I consider myself to be a Christian Libertarian, also a Conservative constitutionalist and a traditionalist. You are making a fundamental mistake in associating the ones you claim to know with all Libertarians. There is more than one path to a political philosophy and that path isn’t as important as the destination. That destination is limited government and individual autonomy. From a strictly political philosophy point of view a man’s religious beliefs don’t interest me at all.


23 posted on 01/06/2013 7:20:24 PM PST by Oklahoma
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To: Amberdawn

—Hate to say it,
—but many Libertarians I know are rabidly anti-Christian.

Must be a local thing
I live in E. Tenn.
It is about as Libertarian as you can get
And is Predominantly Baptist/Methodist/Presbyterian


24 posted on 01/06/2013 7:28:15 PM PST by HangnJudge
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To: humblegunner
When some blogger attempts to use FR as an advertising platform, I might make mention of it. Have you some problem with that?

I have a major problem with it, and so do a lot of Freepers. And it's more than that you are just an annoying obsessive-compulsive thread hijacker - much more.

You see, your basic premis is to attack people for doing exactly what Free Republic does. The MSM hate FR because it excerpts articles, and actually sued FR to try to close it down. In response an agreement was reached about excert lengths, and some news sources are cut out completely from FR.

So who the hell are you to deny bloggers this exact same process? Why don't you attack everyone on FR for participating at all - aren't we all excerpting from the MSM? Why don't you come to their defense?

Oh, because you've personally decided that the MSM is legitimate news, and bloggers are illegitimate? When FR itself is lambasted for that exact same thing by the MSM? When the very purpose of FR is to dig down and expose the bias and lies of the MSM? When FR bloggers have broken historic stories buried by the MSM?

And then you SLANDER ALL OF THEM by referring to them as mere advertising platforms, while completely ignoring their content? Your arrrogant claims of legitimacy are a bald-faced lie!

YOU HAVE NO MORAL BASIS FOR YOUR HARRASSMENT OF FREEPERS!

Get a life, humblegunner. And stop helping the MSM hide things, by attacking bloggers PER SE. If you want to actually help, read bloggers and disagree with them ON MERIT. Not merely because they exist. All you are doing is showing that you are unable to take part in legitimate conversations, and instead have found a little schtick to annoy people with - and greatly help the MSM hide information from people.

For the millionth time, humblegunner, KNOCK IT OFF!

25 posted on 01/06/2013 7:29:05 PM PST by Talisker (One who commands, must obey.)
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To: HangnJudge

It’s local and international. Ever had a discussion with a British Libertarian? Funny you mention Tennessee-Glenn Reynolds is a Professor there.


26 posted on 01/06/2013 7:38:54 PM PST by Amberdawn
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To: Oklahoma

I’m not making any mistakes because I never said that all libertarians think the same way.


27 posted on 01/06/2013 7:40:56 PM PST by Amberdawn
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To: Amberdawn

Interesting Guy...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glenn_Reynolds


28 posted on 01/06/2013 7:51:22 PM PST by HangnJudge
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To: montanajoe

And why can’t it be both? Either way, the current Fedzilla is trampling upon both views of our Rights. The current GOPe sure isn’t helping matters....


29 posted on 01/06/2013 8:21:05 PM PST by i_robot73
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To: i_robot73

libertarian “purists” would allow kiddie porn to be legal, does this jive with Christianity at all?

of course not.


30 posted on 01/06/2013 8:36:38 PM PST by GeronL (http://asspos.blogspot.com)
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To: HangnJudge

Yes, his blog is instapundit.com and is always an interesting read.


31 posted on 01/06/2013 8:47:53 PM PST by Amberdawn
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To: Amberdawn

Yup
But what the heck is Libertarian Transhumanism?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_transhumanism


32 posted on 01/06/2013 8:58:12 PM PST by HangnJudge
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To: HangnJudge

Another wacky Libertarian at work! Lol! I think their into bioengineering humans or somesuch.


33 posted on 01/06/2013 9:05:45 PM PST by Amberdawn
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To: Oklahoma

Libertarians are not social conservatives, Christians are.


34 posted on 01/06/2013 9:16:25 PM PST by ansel12
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To: Amberdawn

You implied that Libertarians weren’t or couldn’t be Christians which isn’t true. The statement “Many Christians that I know are also democrats/socialists.” is as meaningless in this context as your statement that Libertarians are anti-Christian.


35 posted on 01/07/2013 2:05:50 AM PST by Oklahoma
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To: ansel12

I know plenty of Christians that have voted for ultra-leftists over and over. Not all Christians are social conservatives and not all Libertarians are libertines. Perhaps you confuse the terms.

Once again I consider myself a Christian Libertarian and also a traditionalist Constitutionalist that most folks on this forum, if they knew me personally, would consider to be a social conservative.


36 posted on 01/07/2013 2:14:48 AM PST by Oklahoma
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To: Talisker

You just went and encouraged him.


37 posted on 01/07/2013 4:16:53 AM PST by CalvaryJohn (What is keeping that damned asteroid?)
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To: Talisker

38 posted on 01/07/2013 4:43:13 AM PST by humblegunner
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To: grumpa

lemmee see if i gots this straight..

we christians have our freedom guaranteed to us by the constitution..

we also have taken up an obligation to live by his word..

yet, we as christians cannot be trusted to live by his word..

therefore, we need more government intervention into our lives to ensure we live by the word, under penalty of law???

totaltarian is as totaltarian does, regardless of which side of the political spectrum it comes from..


39 posted on 01/07/2013 4:48:54 AM PST by joe fonebone (The clueless... they walk among us, and they vote...)
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To: GeronL

Straw man, unless you can show any discussion, thought or voice to confirm that statement.

No Libertarian believes anything of the sort, children are under the age of consent and contractual obligations.


40 posted on 01/07/2013 5:38:14 AM PST by i_robot73
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To: grumpa

Just as it’s a common mistake to confuse Christians with theocrats, it’s a common mistake to confuse libertarians with anarchists.


41 posted on 01/07/2013 7:45:36 AM PST by Notary Sojac (Ut veniant omnes)
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To: Oklahoma

No, libertarians by definition are not social conservatives, that is why they can’t just call themselves “conservative”, and real conservatives and Christians, are social conservative.

Libertarians are lefties who like conservative economics and are liberal on military and social issues, that is why Bill Maher and a lot of Hollywood lefties are proud to be libertarians.


42 posted on 01/07/2013 9:07:56 AM PST by ansel12
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To: i_robot73

not a strawman. I have quit forums over things like that


43 posted on 01/07/2013 11:07:49 AM PST by GeronL (http://asspos.blogspot.com)
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To: Oklahoma

I believe you have a reading comprehension problem. If you want to put words into other peoples mouths, try someone else.


44 posted on 01/07/2013 1:32:16 PM PST by Amberdawn
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To: ansel12

I do call myself a libertarian and a social conservative which proves you wrong.

The definition of libertarian that most understand and I prefer is Merriam-Webster’s: “a person who upholds the principles of individual liberty especially of thought and action.”

As a libertarian and also a social conservative I’m in favor of a strong military and what some may call an interventionist foreign policy. For instance we should have taken out Castro 50 years ago. I’m in favor of private religious schools, prayer at public events and private contracts. I’m opposed to abortion, non-traditional marriage and government coercion.

Just where do you get the definition that “libertarians... are not social conservatives?” As a forty year reader of National Review I’m aware of many instances where William F. Buckley referred to himself as a “libertarian” and also a “social conservative.” Bill Maher (and most of the rest of the Hollywood crowd) on the other hand is a democrat half-wit that doesn’t understand the term any better than you do.


45 posted on 01/07/2013 3:04:56 PM PST by Oklahoma
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To: Oklahoma

Yeah, it’s definitely possible to be a socially conservative libertarian — I know because I’m one too. I used to be a card carrying member of the Libertarian party but quickly realized they were politically hopeless, so I switched over to the Republicans who certainly have their problems and their impurities but who at least are lined up where the ball is against the Democrats, the true enemies of liberty.


46 posted on 01/07/2013 3:15:28 PM PST by Yardstick
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To: Oklahoma

It merely proves that you are confused, you live in the Ted Kennedy camp of being personally opposed to, but politically and publicly supporting the libertarian agenda.

Here is the leftists agenda hidden behind the Libertarian Party curtain.

Libertarian Party Platform:

Throw open the borders completely; only a rare individual (terrorist, disease carrier etc.) can be kept from freedom of movement through “political boundaries”.

Homosexuals; total freedom in the military, gay marriage, adoption, child custody and everything else.

Abortion; zero restrictions or impediments.

Pornography; no restraint, no restrictions.

Drugs; Meth, Heroin, Crack, and anything new that science can come up with, zero restrictions.

Advertising those drugs, prostitution, and pornography; zero restrictions.

Military Strength; minimal capabilities.


47 posted on 01/07/2013 3:19:15 PM PST by ansel12
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To: Amberdawn

Would you care to quote to me the words you claim I put into other people’s mouths?

Please enlighten me with your brilliance.


48 posted on 01/07/2013 3:20:46 PM PST by Oklahoma
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To: Yardstick
I used to be a card carrying member of the Libertarian party but quickly realized they were politically hopeless, so I switched over to the Republicans

Hopefully it was the party platform that drove you from the libertarians.

49 posted on 01/07/2013 3:22:21 PM PST by ansel12
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To: Oklahoma

Are you capable of reading? I said that MANY (THIS MEANS NOT ALL)Libertarians are anti-religion.


50 posted on 01/07/2013 3:30:49 PM PST by Amberdawn
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