Posted on 07/07/2015 12:20:00 PM PDT by BenLurkin
I don’t have as much faith in the investigative process as you do. Most of accidents I have seen were heavily coated in career-protecting whitewash.
Like I said, they will probably blame the poor schmuck in the Cessna and the whole chain of command will be absolved of all error.
Seen too many of these.
During a mishap investigation fault/blame is not assessed nor is anything discovered during a mishap investigation allowed to be used against anyone.
That is to ensure complete honesty and openness with the mishap investigators, to make sure we know what happened and why, to avoid losing anymore platforms and pilots.
Mishap investigators do not hide the truth, unless it was like the F-117 mishap before it was declassified.
So we have the mishap investigation conducted with complete honesty.
When you are conducting a mishap investigation you have access to all sorts of information.
During all my investigations I've never seen a mishap investigation where the process was corrupted
Never.
Given your cynicism, how many mishap investigations have you been involved with that gives you a contrary position, where you have access to the data and know, know the process was corrupted?
Well it’s also been 20+ years and even then older E-6s so...you get the idea though
During other periods of my career, I witnessed incidents involving the Air Force that were stonewalled/whitewashed: one was an incident where an A7 impacted a hilltop in Hawaii and an Air Force investigative team was sent to accompany me to the wreck site. They carted off some parts with them and claimed that all of the pilot's remains were recovered. I climbed to the wreck site a few weeks later and the majority of the wreck and pieces of the pilot were still there. I recovered as much I could find of him and brought it back down, The Air Force wasn't happy with me for discovering it.
Another incident a long while back was when the Air Force dropped cluster munitions on our artillery battery position in Vietnam. Through the grace of God, only a handful of Marines were lightly injured in the attack. An Air Force investigative team interviewed all of us to see why the weapons weren't more effective (!) You can imagine how happy we were with that approach..
The other incident that stands out was the Thunderbird crash and while back where the entire team hit the ground together. At the end of their investigation, congress wanted to see the videotape of the accident and formally fought to have it released to them. The won their care in the courts but the Air Force general in charge erased the tapes rather than turn them over.
I wish I could tell you that our system is built on integrity and "let the chips fall" ethos but from what I've seen, everybody is far too interested in promotion and the 7-figure incomes that come from a successful GO retirement.
Back in the 70s I was taking flying lessons out of what is now the John Wayne airport in CA. Amazing how many times we’d go by another small plane that appeared pilot-less. Many of them do not pay attention to where they are going, what they are doing, and who’s coming at them.
There was a single copy made of the master mishap tape. No other copies made. Gen Creech deleted the fireball only, well after the incident and report. He did not erase anything prior to the fireball. He erased the fireball because he didn't want the fireball to be used for sensationalizing the mishap. http://www.gao.gov/assets/210/207430.pdf.
Page two has the most info and it is clear there was no attempt to hide or mislead or in any way impeach the MIB findings.
The tape was released to NBC. I am not aware of any congressional request for the tape, just a request to look into why the last couple of seconds (the fireball) were erased.
Regular mishap boards are not done in combat. Combat loss is not a mishap. A combat loss investigation is conducted.
The Air Force sweeping a crash site for remains is a sacred duty to all Air Force personnel. Everyone. The fact they missed some pieces does not support the charge of a biased/faulty investigation opr uncaring sloppy work. Usually the biggest piece that remains are things like a knee-cap or ankle. Pieces of the jet are all over the place, as you well know, and most times the only pieces that look like a jet are the engines, especially if hitting the side of a mountain. I find is difficult to accept that said ALL pieces were recovered. What is likely is major pieces we recovered, pieces that were essential to discovering the why. Pieces of the exterior of the jet no larger than a penny would not be useful.
Your examples date yourself, meaning the processes for investigating were different then as opposed to today. Today is much more refined, scientific and accurate, seeking truth and facts.
An Air Force team investigating weapons effects is NOT a mishap investigation team. In fact, in such cases there will NOT be a mishap board. There will be an investigation but not a mishap investigation.
You are confusing incidents that are not mishaps with actual mishap investigations. Common error, you are not alone. See: http://www.acc.af.mil/library/factsheets/factsheet.asp?fsID=2356
The Air Force mishap investigation process is honorable and clear and done with integrity. I can't say the same thing about the Marines since I never was part of a Marine mishap investigation.
Sight-seeing has caused too many deaths. . .
I received some information you might be interested in. Verifying it’s validity...
Sort of the answer I expected. Everything is just fine - nobody covers up anything.
The remains I recovered included the young man’s lower jaw, his left wrist (which still had hIs watch on it) and assorted other bits.
I am amazed you condone the erasing of that tape: it smacks of arrogance. But the Air Force is never arrogant, is it?
If it is now a USAF pilot that is one thing. If it is a USAF pilot im biased to believe it is a cessna problem.
If some damned obongo guest out joy riding and hot dogging it is another matter.
correction to first sentence. NOT a USAF
This mishap seems to have inspired a witch hunt with a preconceived notion it is the fault of the F-16 pilot. Why?
Am I not seeing this correctly?
Our pilots are not all perfect but they are working very hard to do their jobs with precision and professionalism under horrible pressures and with worn out aircraft. I am fiercely loyal to them.
Our military is in terrible shape. I see the boys do their jobs and cant help but feel sorry for them.
Condone “erasing the tape” is to misrepresent my position.
The last couple seconds were erased—the fireball. That is all. Nothing more. The way you state it the tape was erased if not entirely, but erased critical parts and that simply was not true.
I responded with facts and informed opinion regarding the examples you stated. Apparently you disagree as you make no distinction between various investigative boards and their responsibilities. There is no need to be insulting or to let your pre-conceived biases over-ride your civility.
Well, there you have it. You said your piece and I said mine. You have nothing further to add so I wish you a good day.
I agree 100%
Sure. And when the investigation determines that the Cessna pilot was at fault, you’re going to confident that findings were fairly achieved, I’m sure.
I have also flown both Cessnas and a high-performance fighter (a TAV-8B)
And I know the difference between the visibility, speed, and maneuverability and there is no comparison. Two people are dead more than likely with no idea at all what happened to them.
I’ll bet the report will blame the dead guys.
“TAV-8B”
A two-place version? So you were a passenger, a ride-along.
Look, you obviously have issues. So here are your choices:
1. Let your juvenile self throw a snit-fit and engage in further snark and insults; you simply must have the last word because you care what I think otherwise you would not be so insistingly childish in your posts
or
2. Let it go, be an adult. You made your feelings quite clear and I have stated my facts clearly, and because I don't know you and don't care what you think. I trust those following this thread to make up their mind.
So, be a child or be a man. Your choice.
Have a nice day.
Be a man and answer - you're the one with the tantrum...
A high-performance jet with excellent visibility smacks into a slow-moving, low-flying Cessna, who's at fault?
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