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Insurance for All: Germans Can't Fathom US Aversion to Obama's Healthcare Reform
Der Spiegel ^ | 05/11/2012 | Miriam Widman

Posted on 05/12/2012 2:21:57 PM PDT by Olog-hai

As the United States Supreme Court considers whether requiring people to have health insurance is unconstitutional, Germans are bewildered as to why so many Americans appear to be against universal coverage.

They also question the continued portrayal of US President Barack Obama and his health reform backers as socialists and communists, noting that healthcare was introduced in Germany in the 19th century by Otto von Bismarck, who was definitely not a leftist, and is supported by conservative and pro-business politicians today.

"It's a solidarity principle," says Ann Marini, a spokesperson for the National Health Insurers Association. "Not every 'S' automatically means socialism."

Marini and others say that mandated coverage is something that is simply not questioned in Germany. Furthermore, even the most pro-market politicians wouldn't dare to dismantle the country's health insurance system.

The requirement that everyone buy health insurance is based on a simple concept, healthcare experts agree. Allowing healthy people to opt out of having health insurance destroys the insurance community and leaves insurers covering only the sick. …

But there are other reasons why Germans are confused about the US healthcare debate. The US comes across to not only Germans, but to many Europeans, as a religious country. God seems to be part of many US debates, especially ones surrounding the presidential campaign. In secular European politics, the Almighty is rarely if ever invoked.

"For me the US is a very religious country. It doesn't matter which religion I look at—love thy neighbor is a very, very important point in religion," health insurance spokesperson Marini says. For her, the apparent deep religiousness of many Americans doesn't jibe with their unwillingness to be part of a healthcare community.

(Excerpt) Read more at spiegel.de ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Health/Medicine; Science; Society
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Um, “solidarity” is another socialist catchphrase, guys.
1 posted on 05/12/2012 2:22:03 PM PDT by Olog-hai
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To: Olog-hai

As I see it, the Germans couldn’t fathom Hitler or the Nazi’s either.


2 posted on 05/12/2012 2:27:11 PM PDT by basil (It's time to rid the country of "gun free zones" aka "Killing Fields")
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To: Olog-hai

Wait until the full cost of their medical system becomes apparent. And Germany is not connected to a 3rd world continent which provides a never ending need for additional costs to the taxpayer. The Germans think Greece is hard to support. Try Latin America.


3 posted on 05/12/2012 2:28:28 PM PDT by BeckB
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To: Olog-hai
Ask a German or a Brit where they would like to go if they needed a life saving surgery on short notice?


4 posted on 05/12/2012 2:29:59 PM PDT by darkwing104 (Let's get dangerous)
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To: basil

They didn’t have much of a problem with death camps either...


5 posted on 05/12/2012 2:30:31 PM PDT by Average Al (Forbidden fruit leads to many jams.)
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To: Olog-hai

An Insurance Card is NOT the same as “Health Care”!

Equality of Coverage is NOT the same as “Quality Health Care”!

“Free” does NOT mean “Good”!


6 posted on 05/12/2012 2:30:41 PM PDT by G Larry (Criminals thrive on the indulgence of society's understanding)
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To: Olog-hai
Allowing healthy people to opt out of having health insurance destroys the insurance community and leaves insurers covering only the sick.

Not if insurers are free to refuse people with preexisting conditions.

7 posted on 05/12/2012 2:32:14 PM PDT by Yardstick
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To: Olog-hai
Marini and others say that mandated coverage is something that is simply not questioned in Germany.

Well ... no ... that might get you noticed. And then comes the Nacht und Nebel.

8 posted on 05/12/2012 2:32:44 PM PDT by ClearCase_guy (Like Emmett Till, Trayvon Martin has become simply a stick with which to beat Whites.)
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To: BeckB

Way more Turks and Italians in Germany than Greeks.


9 posted on 05/12/2012 2:32:55 PM PDT by csmusaret (Obama's new slogan: "Fo Mo Mo Fo.")
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To: Olog-hai
Their version of health care in the 1930s-1940s is precisely why I don't want forced health care here now.
10 posted on 05/12/2012 2:33:11 PM PDT by Vince Ferrer
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To: basil

Americans historically have had some fundamental ideas about freedom that were dismissed as nonsense in much of Europe, especially the firmly regimented Germany. Americans are not so bent on a quest for utopia that they forget to consider what jolly well actually works the best.

Let Germany have a system like Obamacare if it wants. Somebody has to keep on supporting the cornucopia of medical care capabilities, and that somebody has been the USA.


11 posted on 05/12/2012 2:37:26 PM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (Mitt! You're going to have to try harder than that to be "severely conservative" my friend.)
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To: Olog-hai

Do you notice that only government healthcare is called “healthcare”. As if this country has no healthcare at all unless its government operated.

That is a premise we should always totally reject.


12 posted on 05/12/2012 2:38:50 PM PDT by GeronL (The Right to Life came before the Right to Pursue Happiness)
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To: Olog-hai

Aw, c’mon Freepers! The Germans just love National Socialist Healthcare. Why shouldn’t we?


13 posted on 05/12/2012 2:41:35 PM PDT by Jacquerie (No court will save us from ourselves.)
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To: Olog-hai

Fair enough,we can’t fathom Germany’s affection for leather shorts.


14 posted on 05/12/2012 2:42:42 PM PDT by Gay State Conservative (Julia: another casualty of the "War on Poverty")
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The author should familiarize herself with Bismarck’s Kulturkampf.


15 posted on 05/12/2012 2:44:23 PM PDT by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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To: Olog-hai

Marx was German. So was Hitler.


16 posted on 05/12/2012 2:44:52 PM PDT by Brilliant
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To: G Larry
An Insurance Card is NOT the same as “Health Care”!

Equality of Coverage is NOT the same as “Quality Health Care”!

“Free” does NOT mean “Good”!

Right!

And controlling health cares prices is not the same thing as controlling health care costs.

Government force controls prices, market competition controls costs.

17 posted on 05/12/2012 2:44:52 PM PDT by SupplySider
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To: Olog-hai
Allowing healthy people to opt out of having health insurance destroys the insurance community

Well then it's not insurance. It's redistribution.
18 posted on 05/12/2012 2:45:40 PM PDT by andyk (Go Juan Pablo!)
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To: G Larry

“An Insurance Card is NOT the same as “Health Care”!”

That’s how they do it from I’m from originally” canada. If you have no health card, it’s FU. The gubmint’ makes sure you pay up your monthly premiums for if not, the gubmint’ sells you out to collection agencies. It happened to my older friends and family. And this is what America wants? I moved here because I was trying to avoid socialism.


19 posted on 05/12/2012 2:46:00 PM PDT by max americana
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To: Vince Ferrer

20 posted on 05/12/2012 2:46:00 PM PDT by jimbo123
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To: Olog-hai
The Germans loved Joe Kennedy...

...’nuff said.

21 posted on 05/12/2012 2:47:09 PM PDT by Happy Rain (Apparently the song "Ebony and Ivory" is about Barrack Obama and Barney Frank.)
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To: Olog-hai
German medicine made gigantic progressive advances immediately prior to and during WWII.

They perfected many cutting edge medical procedures.

22 posted on 05/12/2012 2:47:54 PM PDT by Navy Patriot (Join the Democrats, it's not Fascism when WE do it and the law is what WE say it is.)
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To: Olog-hai

I gotta say...as an ex-pat family living in Germany basically on the German health care system, we pay through the nose for health care here out of our taxes. But so far, no complaints with the service/treatment that we’ve received. I had a bike accident this week and thought my foot was broken. We went to the ER, paid our 10 euro co-pay, and I was treated & released in less than 90 minutes. My husband once needed an “all clear” report so that he could make a trip to India...on a Friday afternoon at 1 pm, he made an appt. with a Kidney doctor (last test had shown protein in his urine). The doctor saw him immediately, and by 6 pm he had his lab results back, clearing him for travel. So far the only problems we’ve had has been getting to see an opthamologist. In our city, the waiting time was about 2 months. Then we tried a smaller village nearby, and got an appt. within 2 weeks. They have here at most doctors’ offices a “Sprechestunde”, which basically is a daily 2 hour window where you can just show up without an appointment. One last story...my dad came for a visit a few summers back. He seemed very weak & could hardly walk, so I took him to our doctor, who discovered that he was suffering from congestive heart failure, and sent us immediately to the hospital. They performed several tests, a few procedures (heart cath, ablation, etc.) My dad had some other problems, and ended up staying in the hospital for 3 weeks. They wouldn’t accept his insurance, so we had to pay in cash for all his treatment. His total bill (including doctors care, hospital, EVERYTHING was 6100 euros (basically $8300 at the time.) All in all, I think the German health care is much better than the British system. But we do pay through the nose...

Most Germans believe that poor Americans don’t receive any treatment. They don’t know that poor Americans & illegal aliens can be treated at a local ER. They are just mis-informed.


23 posted on 05/12/2012 2:50:58 PM PDT by cinciella
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To: Brilliant
"Marx was German. So was Hitler."

Actually, Hitler was Austrian.

24 posted on 05/12/2012 2:50:58 PM PDT by gorush (History repeats itself because human nature is static)
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To: Olog-hai

So, the Germans would be pleased to pay for universal health coverage for every Turk or 3rd world refugees who snuck across their border

And the anchor babies, of course

Surely the Germans bestow citizenship and full benefits on anchor babies?

And then of course they’d be glad to pay even more taxes in reparations to everyone who was ever enslaved by the nazis, for the next 150 years

(crickets)


25 posted on 05/12/2012 2:51:17 PM PDT by silverleaf (Funny how all the people who are for abortion are already born)
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To: Olog-hai

one word HITLER

Euro pigs should keep their opinions to themselves


26 posted on 05/12/2012 2:51:57 PM PDT by Lera (Proverbs 29:2)
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To: jimbo123

LOL, the krauts are asking why Americans don’t love something that they do? These silly Euro-weenies..


27 posted on 05/12/2012 2:53:13 PM PDT by max americana
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To: Olog-hai

Great: more foreigners who think they have all the answers to the US’s problems. :)

Maybe they can fix the EU before giving us advice.


28 posted on 05/12/2012 2:54:07 PM PDT by Tzimisce (THIS SUCKS)
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To: Olog-hai

And Americans cannot fathom socialism including German National Socialism.


29 posted on 05/12/2012 2:55:12 PM PDT by MIchaelTArchangel (Da Bro' Gotsta Go!)
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To: Olog-hai

Nothing from Europe is worth emulating in the US, and this includes socialist healthcare with its necessary heavy taxation.


30 posted on 05/12/2012 2:55:32 PM PDT by GenXteacher (You have chosen dishonor to avoid war; you shall have war also.)
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To: Navy Patriot

Yeah, Doctors like SS Hauptsturmfuhrer Mengele were real medical pioneers.


31 posted on 05/12/2012 2:56:11 PM PDT by Happy Rain (Apparently the song "Ebony and Ivory" is about Barrack Obama and Barney Frank.)
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To: Olog-hai
Otto Von Bismark was not a conservative!

At least not in the sense Americans fathom it.

European conservatives are pro-aristocratic, royalists, etc. Their politics are not ours. People, especially the commoners, serfs, peasants, etc have no rights but are rather subjects. That a royalist would wish to take care of a subject by peserving his health fits right in with European conservatism. After all, such people would BELONG to a king or count, and much as cattle are taken care of, you'd be sure to take care of your subjects. Here in the USA, conservatism is entirely different.

It is about our RIGHTS, and more specifically, our NATRUAL RIGHTS. ALL men are born with them. You don't have to be a king, a duke, or a knight to have them. We are equal in them and in and before the law.

Quote: Is medical care a Natural Right? Absolutely not. Natural Rights are yours NO MATTER WHAT ANYONE ELSE DOES OR DOES NOT DO. You can’t get medical care without someone voluntarily providing it. Since you have no right to force other people to do anything, you cannot get medical care without the consent of others. You have a Natural Right to try to get medical care, but you do not have a Natural Right to actually get it. If you did, you would also have the right to coerce medical care from others. You have no right to coerce others for anything. Again, no Natural Right requires the consent of another. Medical care requires consent of other people.

32 posted on 05/12/2012 2:59:15 PM PDT by Alas Babylon!
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To: basil

Advice from a people who really enjoy marching in parades.


33 posted on 05/12/2012 2:59:33 PM PDT by Eric in the Ozarks
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To: max americana

“Allowing healthy people to opt out of having health insurance destroys the insurance community and leaves insurers covering only the sick. “

With that type of thinking,,,,, if you don’t drive, and don’t own a car,,,, you should still be forced to buy auto insurance?????


34 posted on 05/12/2012 3:00:06 PM PDT by Dr. Bogus Pachysandra ( Ya can't pick up a turd by the clean end!)
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To: max americana

I specifically remember running into a German tourist in Grand Teton National Park. This was years ago. We were struck by the beauty. Asc we were talking, he asked how it could have been possible with these beautiful mountains and all this land that the US went to war with Germany in WWII. He was serious.

I was too dumb struck to ask him how the Grand Tetons and Great Plains figured in WWII from his point of view.

I am not certain German logic goes beyond machinery. /s slightly. And yes, I come from partial German ancestry.


35 posted on 05/12/2012 3:01:34 PM PDT by combat_boots (The Lion of Judah c<meth. Hallelujah. Gloria Patri, Filio et Spiritui Sancto.)
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To: Olog-hai

Because it won’’t be health care all.


36 posted on 05/12/2012 3:02:34 PM PDT by freekitty (Give me back my conservative vote; then find me a real conservative to vote for)
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To: Brilliant

No; Hitler was Austrian.


37 posted on 05/12/2012 3:02:52 PM PDT by Olog-hai
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To: max americana

Inside every German is Nazi just dying to come out.


38 posted on 05/12/2012 3:03:40 PM PDT by jimbo123
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To: gorush
Hitler was more German than most Germans—he voluntarily fought for the Kaiser and once in power his first act of aggression on foreign soil was the Anschluss.

Bavaria and Austria were twin mothers of Nazism.

39 posted on 05/12/2012 3:03:51 PM PDT by Happy Rain (Apparently the song "Ebony and Ivory" is about Barrack Obama and Barney Frank.)
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To: Olog-hai

They the “Germans” were just following orders?


40 posted on 05/12/2012 3:05:26 PM PDT by jimbo123
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To: Olog-hai

The fact that the Germans (and other Europeans) can’t fathom the argument against mandatory purchase of coverage is clear indication that they do not ‘get’ America at all.
The invocation of multiple socialist concepts throughout this article certainly represents the European view, today. The American expat cafe owner fits right in with the Euro-Socialist view (Solidarity? Where have we heard that before?) and should stay right there and peddle her goods.

For us, the notion that the government should be so deeply entwined in our daily lives conflicts with the very founding principles on which this great nation was built.

Get the damn government out of the way, and the nation will heal itself...healthcare included.


41 posted on 05/12/2012 3:06:27 PM PDT by PubliusMM (RKBA; a matter of fact, not opinion. 01-20-2013: Change we can look forward to.)
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To: A.A. Cunningham

FTR, der Spiegel is “center-left” by their standards, albeit in the same sphere as the NYT. They probably regard “Kulturkampf” as a valid secular thing . . .


42 posted on 05/12/2012 3:06:46 PM PDT by Olog-hai
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To: basil
As I see it, the Germans couldn’t fathom Hitler or the Nazi’s either.

They COULD fathom him perfectly well - he called for "solidarity" too and, as with national healthcare, they fell right in line and few spoke out. But, as Thomas Jefferson said, "one man with courage is a majority". Our tradition of honoring the individual over "solidarity" is what has kept us freer than Europe, and out of a dictatorship (for now).

43 posted on 05/12/2012 3:07:50 PM PDT by montag813
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To: combat_boots

“I was too dumb struck to ask him how the Grand Tetons and Great Plains figured in WWII from his point of view.”

I’ve heard even dumber ones from the krauts. I was in France on lance Armstrong’s year when he won TDF number 7. Anyways, you’d think the French were the most idiotic, but hands down the Germans and Spaniards were truly “one of a kind”.


44 posted on 05/12/2012 3:08:45 PM PDT by max americana
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To: cinciella

There are a lot of misinformed people on both aisles.

I lived in Germany for fifteen years, so I know the system. They’ve peaked out at a point on cost....where the consumer will go ballistic if they stretch it again. So they invented a new fee system, for monthly payments...totally separate from the normal cost. Every year...that fee goes up another $5-$8 a month.

Anger amongst German doctors and nurses? Well, yes. They are very hostile over the few pay raises they get. So they tend to leave, for Canada, the US, and Australia...or private clinics throughout Europe.

Refurbishing German hospitals? Well...it’s a on a slow pace because there just isn’t cash from the profits to do that. So you walk into one entrance and you feel like you are in 1950s Germany, then exit one hallway to feel like 1967, and then finally hit one hallway that feels like 1997.

Treatment? No one complains greatly about the treatment in German clinics or hospitals, although everyone seems to notice more third-world doctors and nurses operating in the system. Germans don’t like that. But if you want to keep the German professionals...you’d have to pay more.

As for the American system? A heck of alot of Americans have learned that you might make it five years without ever going to the doctor, so why bother paying $2k out of your pocket for a marginal health insurance policy via your employer? So they turn down the chance to have at least a marginal policy.

Then you have those fantastic doctors who prescribe tons of pain-killers....which you get addicted to....and eventually require a second and third doctor to help keep your legal but illegal habit going.

Toss in the folks who believe an emergency room is a routine place to show up for a problem that ought to wait until you see a regular doctor...then they get all shocked that the emergency room visit was $500.

Sports injuries over a weekend? Probably five times as many in a US hospital as a German hospital.

Weekend drug binges and visits to the local American emergency room? Probably five times what you’d have in Trier or Heldelberg. Who pays for the drug visitors? Well...the American who has no health insurance just laughs when the bill comes to the house because he’s not paying for it....so it gets tossed back onto the folks who routinely visit and make the cost appear on their bills instead.

If you ask me....all of the systems are screwed up. And in ten years...it won’t matter if you are German or American...you won’t have the same care that you had in 1995. We all will be getting less care, and asking why. The answer will not be a satisfactory one.


45 posted on 05/12/2012 3:09:21 PM PDT by pepsionice
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To: Olog-hai

>>Um, “solidarity” is another socialist catchphrase, guys.

In 1980’s Poland, it was an anti-communist catchphrase.


46 posted on 05/12/2012 3:10:54 PM PDT by Bryanw92 (Sic semper tyrannis)
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To: Yardstick
Not if insurers are free to refuse people with preexisting conditions.

Oh yes, let's make sure all industries in the USA have to enter guaranteed losing business deals. That's brilliant. /s

47 posted on 05/12/2012 3:11:09 PM PDT by C. Edmund Wright
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To: jimbo123

“Inside every German is Nazi just dying to come out.”

That’s a really ignorant statement. Most of the German people did not agree or didn’t know what was going on or were scared out of their wits to do or say anything. I mean, we can see in our own country how hard it is to do anything about what’s going on with the Obama administration and we supposedly have the bill of rights to protect us...He’s moving right ahead with his agenda, and who’s stopping him???


48 posted on 05/12/2012 3:12:03 PM PDT by cinciella
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To: Olog-hai
healthcare was introduced in Germany in the 19th century by Otto von Bismarck, who was definitely not a leftist
I'm not sure exactly what the word "leftist" meant in Germany in the 1880s but Bismarck did found much of the German Welfare State at that time.
49 posted on 05/12/2012 3:12:39 PM PDT by samtheman ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZ-4gnNz0vc)
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To: Olog-hai
healthcare was introduced in Germany in the 19th century by Otto von Bismarck, who was definitely not a leftist
I'm not sure exactly what the word "leftist" meant in Germany in the 1880s but Bismarck did found much of the German Welfare State at that time.
50 posted on 05/12/2012 3:12:54 PM PDT by samtheman ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZ-4gnNz0vc)
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