Posted on 09/10/2011 6:51:05 AM PDT by erkyl
Ron Clark is an award-winning teacher who started his own academy in Atlanta He wants parents to trust teachers and their advice about their students Clark says some teachers hand out A grades so parents won't bother them It's OK for kids to get in trouble sometimes; it teaches life lessons, Clark says
(Excerpt) Read more at cnn.com ...
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Many on this thread have complained about how mechanics make more than teachers. I have pointed out they do not.
“The only way it could work would be to take government off the hook for people’s failure to ensure their children are educated.”
You could have the government provide a voucher good for X dollars each year. That would not be requiring parents to pay, but it would allow complete freedom in what school they pay to do the job.
Another fairly simple solution would be to allow teachers to punish children, if they attend. It is the lack of discipline that prevents education, not the lack of money.
“As I pointed out in another post — I know people who teach, not because of the pay, since they are financially comfortable otherwise, but out of choosing to serve their community where they see a need. Jealous of mechanics? I’d have to ask them, but I don’t think they are.”
You are the one complaining about money. You are the one saying we need to raise teachers salaries. In post 5 YOU wrote:
“I asked a guy once; What does it say about priorities when people are willing to pay a mechanic two to three times per hour to work on a car, what they are willing to pay a teacher to teach a classroom full of children?”
In post 20 you wrote:
“Spend money on your kid’s education — it takes longer and is something you have to put some effort of your own into. “
Post 54:
“In most areas, teachers who have any decent standard of living are not the primary income for their family. If it’s so lucrative and so easy — why aren’t you doing it? “
Post 56:
“In fact, I see mechs here better off than teachers, unless the teacher has a spouse with a good job.”
I’m glad to see you’ve overcome your jealousy of mechanics, particularly since mechanics work longer hours and get paid less.
“Back to the BLS — the median annualized wage for college graduates is $57,200, compared to the $49k-$51K overall you cite for teachers (man, I know a lot of people who’d like to know where the $49k teachers’ salaries are — they sure aren’t around here.”
Then do some research. I provided a county by county breakdown for the state of Virginia. Here is Arizona:
“Starting Salary: $30,404 / Average Salary: $44,672”
http://teacherportal.com/salary/Arizona-teacher-salary
Yes, Arizona is below the national average. Tucson is the closest city to me, and where my sister teaches. The average salary is $44,000...”Average Teacher salaries for job postings in Tucson, AZ are 23% lower than average Teacher salaries for job postings nationwide.”
http://www.indeed.com/salary/q-Teacher-l-Tucson,-AZ.html
And yes, that explains why my wife makes less than the national average of nurses - she works in Tucson. $44,000/1500 = $29/hour. Plus benefits. My wife gets no benefits, and for this year gets paid more because of that. She makes just under $27 hour.
“By way of clearer picture, since you want to cite BLS, according to them, a nurse’s annual salary was $62k in 2008. That comes out to $31/hour. But you say your wife only makes $27? Maybe the numbers aren’t the be-all, end-all you want them to be. Especially when comparing numbers from different sources (BLS vs AFT).”
You once again show you do not understand economics and numbers. I never claimed all teachers everywhere make $49K. That is a national average. However, I have claimed they are well paid for what they do. My wife will have her BSN in a couple of months. That will raise her pay to $28/hour. And yes, she works in a field where mistakes can kill the patient. One mistake can end your career. It can end the patient, too!
You - not other posters, but YOU - have complained on this thread at length about how little teachers make, and that salaries need to be raised. Glad to see you now admit the money isn’t the issue.
“Most of the teachers I know are taking home $40k/year, which comes out to $22/hour just for school hours, but more like $19-$20/hour for time actually spent.”
BLS statistics are for pay, not take home pay. Mechanics take home less than their hourly earnings. Actual time spent in most jobs runs higher than paid hours. My wife is paying for her BSN, in time and money. She will pay out of pocket and take classes as long as she is a nurse. You have to if you are going to be current. But she doesn’t work 9 months out of the year. Someone with 3 months time off out of 12 simply is not working as hard as someone who works 12 months out of 12.
“Oh no, my BIL is one and I wouldn’t do his job for twice my pay - of course, he wouldn’t do mine either, so everything works out in the long run...”
Exactly. Very few people really want to do what I did in the military, but I loved it. I wouldn’t last in my wife’s job. I’d be fired after I tore a patient care tech a new butthole, or told one of the state-paid patients there to get state-paid for drugs to stop their whining.
My BIL is an exceptional teacher. He works in one of the toughest schools, yet he doesn’t raise his voice...but the kids do what he says. I couldn’t do half the job he does. Then again, he couldn’t have done mine.
I know a teacher who quit a couple of years ago to work horses. She was a good teacher, and satisfied with the pay, but loved horses and wanted to train them. She’s amazing with horses. Good with kids too, but her passion was training horses.
My heartburn is with people who make a choice, then complain about the result. I spent most of my adult life deploying overseas 5-6 months each year. I lived in tents, was shot at, worked very long hours - and loved it. If the USAF was willing to let me fly, I’d go back in a heartbeat.
If a teacher is unhappy, she SHOULD find other work. Not all are cut out to teach. But I honestly don’t think many teachers quit over low pay. Problems with administration, paperwork, counterproductive policies, refusal to let the teacher teach - THOSE are what I hear from the teachers I know. And those are not solved by money.
In fact, my sister taught for a few years in Africa. She was happier teaching kids without any electricity than she has been in the USA.
Yes, it varies from district to district. If I had anything to say to MY students' parents, it would be only this: read to your kids and stop buying them gameboys, iPods, blackberries, cell phones, etc. Don't let them watch all sorts of crap on tv. Keep them off the social networks till they're at least 16. Get some BOOKS in the house! In English, in Spanish, whatever, but get them reading! And stop letting them eat Hot Cheetos for breakfast, for Pete's sake.
Yes indeed... and in order to teach academics effectively, teachers need to be able to maintain discipline and order in the classroom. School boards, parents, and the courts have taken this ability away from teachers, and therefore the whole system is fatally flawed from the beginning...
...which is why we homeschool. There's no bull$h!t bad behavior in our school. The student/teacher ratio of no more than 4:1 helps a great deal in this regard. It also helps (in probably a dozen different ways) that the Mom and the Teacher are one and the same.
The good teachers happened to be Christian, and one that was Jewish.
One of my favorites listened to Christian music before and after school. Lots of kids came into her room at those times, and they got to hear the worship music.
My kids knew the ones that were Christian. They knew which churches they went to, and we ran into a few at church.
In elementary school, my kids never got taught anything that I did not approve of.
One teacher that my son had in middle school was absolutely amazing. He was a landscape architect, and then he had a stroke and almost died. He changed his life around at that time. He went back to school and got his teaching certificate. He now teaches US History in the public school. He is very involved in Campus Life which is a Christian organization that go into the public schools and they have a Christian club/Bible study during lunch. Lots of kids went to Campus Life because he was involved with it.
My kids went to one good public elementary school that had good teachers and a great group of parents. Unfortunately, the school district shut it down. That’s when our main problems with public school started. My son went to public middle school, but that was a mistake. My daughters went to private middle school. Our kids go to a private Christian school now.
We are using Khan for Science this year.
Superb advice!
Go back to basic reading comprehension on post 5:
“I asked a guy once; What does it say about priorities when people are willing to pay a mechanic two to three times per hour to work on a car, what they are willing to pay a teacher to teach a classroom full of children?”
The statement was about priorities. Sure, you, and so many others, immediately jumped to the, "teachers are ALL overpaid, underworked, parasitic union sycophants," theme. And I continued to point out that if people wanted to have really great teachers, they could spend more and make it worthwhile for really great people to teach.
But I'm kind of at a loss for where I said -- directly, and not in your or others' stretch of what I said -- "You all need to pay teachers more."
I've always said reading comprension needed more work.
In post 5 YOU wrote:
“I asked a guy once; What does it say about priorities when people are willing to pay a mechanic two to three times per hour to work on a car, what they are willing to pay a teacher to teach a classroom full of children?”
In post 20 you wrote:
“Spend money on your kid’s education — it takes longer and is something you have to put some effort of your own into. “
Post 54:
“In most areas, teachers who have any decent standard of living are not the primary income for their family. If it’s so lucrative and so easy — why aren’t you doing it? “
Post 56:
“In fact, I see mechs here better off than teachers, unless the teacher has a spouse with a good job.”
Post 70:
“I’m with you — pay teachers what it takes to fill the positions — with talent, not someone who just keeps the seat warm and hands out worksheets.
Your comment is like saying, “Just pay mechanics enough to find someone who knows which end of the wrench to pick up.”
You will pay for what you value, and value what you pay for.”
Post 71:
“I equate paying a fair price for fair value. If people want to farm their kids to the lowest cost worker, then they deserve what they get. If they want to demand quality, then expect to pay a fair price.”
Where DID we get the idea you thought money was the issue? Guess we just imagined it...
I'm a bystander, as a grandfather. And a never-was in homeschooling.But I'm impressed with the game Khan talks; seems like it ought to work quite well.I also think that he has laid down a marker, and others will follow up with similar lecture files, which if not better will at least be different. Giving the student different perspectives on the material being discussed, which might be helpful.
I'll be interested in any FReeper feedback on how well Khan works out for homeschooling.
Over the years I have had many times where I consulted an auto mechanic. Over and over I would find one who did a good job and didn’t seem to finagle. Then after the third visit or so I would find a brake line nicked or a fan belt with a cut in it or he would start lying to me about what it needs. I am pretty fair with a wrench and sometimes go to the shop out of laziness rather than because I don’t know what is wrong so I can often catch a mech in a lie. Sometimes the clue that the relationship has gone bad is when I tell the mech what I think might be wrong and he repeats back to me my diagnosis almost word for word. The only place I’ve been that has not got around to chicanery is a tire shop that also does other work. I have been taking my car there for 9 years now.
“And that is the main gist of the article”
We must have read different articles...the main gist of the article that I read was that the teacher is the one with the authority over the child not the parent...an example would be about the summer reading assignment...another would be about not questioning the teacher...another would be about respect “owed”. I am sorry but from this article I would get the impression that teachers have very little if any respect for the parents...and if I am correct then it is no wonder that most public school kids that I know have little to no respect for their parents. They are learning that lesson well...
1. Teachers are the same as any other human being and their occupation reflects that; some good, some bad; most mediocre.
2. Teachers are only a part of the problem and part of the solution. The unspoken elephant is bad parents and parenting.
3. The educational system is increasingly a government concern and reflects that in all ways at all levels.
4. Curriculum is increasing antithetical to families, faith and Americanism.
Given the bent of human nature, the decline in the family and culture and the greed for power in an increasingly remote and tyrannical government all bets seem off for the revitalization and improvement of public (er, government) schools.
Unless the system is freed from the negative forces of all four major elements, education will only continue its decline.
Suggested solutions are many, varied and largely fanciful unless all four components are addressed. So, current alternative options are the best solutions for concerned parents unwilling to gamble on ‘new and improved’ public education claims.
That leaves charter schools (still controlled by the system), private and parochial schools (as long as they are sound and watched carefully) and, of course, homeschooling.
For my money, homeschooing is where it's at. Of course, it's subject to compromise from lazy, stupid parents the same as public schools. It's also vulnerable to poor curriculum, pedagogy and the usual plagues of the family social system. On the whole, though, HS’ers are dedicated, rigorous and effective (just like good teachers). The big difference is that HS’ers don't need to cope with other lousy parents, slacker colleagues, bad curriculum or government control to degrade their efforts.
In short. HS’ers are, by definition, actively involved in their children's education. They have the best of all worlds and that's exactly what good teachers wish they had in the PS classrooms - a free hand.
When something better comes along, I'll look it over, kick the tires and let somebody else’s kids test drive it.
I saw this time and time again when I used to teach in the public schools. If I was lucky, there was one other teacher who gave students the grades they deserved. Then a child with a D in my class would have a D in that other class and A's in everything else. I was shocked when I heard the first teacher in the lounge admit that he throws the papers in the trash and gives everyone an A. But over time, I came to understand that it was the inevitable result of unions and tenure. This year we are starting homeschooling our kindergartener. We love it!
Here in Wisconsin - our Gov. Walker has taken this to task. THAT is why the union thugs nation wide are fighting us in WI tooth and nail. We now have teachers that don’t have to join unions, the school system is NOT automatically deducting scummy union dues to hand over to the Dems / ahem / Unions. Unions are furious. Tough noogies, I say. Did you hear Obummer the other night screaming during his pre-football TOTUS reading that blah blah blah collective bargaining is a right. NOT so... obummer -NOT a right. Not here in Wisconsin and it should not be anywhere. So, the unions thank the public by what? Check out Washington where they took 5 hostages. oh yeah. That’s a real good thing, right Trumka, Hoffa and Obummer? Union thuggery should be met with imprisonment, like any horrid crime
You missed one point and then you ignored another. As I said, she’s not in it for career.
I had a male teacher in 5th grade that used to spank me, across his legs, with his bare hand, on my bare bottom. I would say it was an isolated case except it happened again in 9th, in another Christian school, in another state. My parents pulled me from the schools both times — who knows, maybe it was my fault some how
“You want a working public educational system? Really?”
No, not really. I think we’d be better off with with a government school system that was vastly reduced in both size and scope.
“Obviously you have not been on the same threads I have....but don’t worry I’m pretty sure they will show up.”
Do you mean those who dislike teachers, or those who dislike the government school system and want to see it largely dismantled? I’ve seen very few of the former and many of the latter on education threads.
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