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Shroud of Turin Carbon 14 Madness

NEWS: Carbon 14 Dating in 1988 Was Flawed - Shroud IS NOT Medieval

Details Here

Strange Images on the Turin Shroud

The Shroud's Journey: Edessa to Turin

Second Face on The Shroud of Turin

Shroud Research 1898 to 2005

Description of the Shroud of Turin

 

Skeptical Inquirer's FAQ
 

Shroud of Turin Skeptical Spectacle

The skeptical inquirer and the Shroud of Turin

Shroud of Turin Story Breaking News

The true skeptical inquirer knows no certainty: that is his misfortune; he is aware of it, and that is his gift.

Imagine slicing a human hair lengthwise, from end to end, into 100 long thin slices, each slice one-tenth the width of a single red blood cell. The images on the Shroud, at their thickest, are this thin. The faint images, golden-brownish, formed by a caramel-like substance, are wholly part of a super-thin film of starch fractions and sugars. Where this film is not brown, it is clear.  Knowing the way certain ancient linen was made, the film covering just some of the cloth's fibers can be expected. And knowing that dead bodies produce gaseous cadaverine and putrescine that react with sugars to form caramel-like substances called melanoidins, the color is not only possible, it is expected. Spectral data, chemical tests and photomicrographs: all this is documented in peer-reviewed scientific journals. The honest skeptical inquirer must wonder, How can this be?

It is preposterous to think such images were painted.

The notion that such super-thin images were painted is preposterous. Yes, it is true that one scientist did peer through a microscope and find components of what might have been paint. And because of this he concluded that the Shroud was painted. Walter McCrone was a world renowned microscopist, deservedly so. He was a true scientist and he knew his craft well. We should not doubt that he found iron-oxide and mercury-sulfide, both constituents of paint. But there are many reasons why such chemical particles might be found on the Shroud: water used for retting flax and centuries of dust; particularly dust in churches with frescoed ceiling and walls. All other scientists who examined the image fibers -- many of them as renowned and every bit as qualified -- have disagreed with McCrone. There is, simply, an insufficient amount of paint constituents to form a visible image. Spectral analysis proves that. So does the now certain knowledge of the image bearing super-thin film. Ironically, McCrone identified the super-thin starch substance that ultimately became part of the proof that

his conclusions were wrong.

So what are we to make of a 14th century bishop, Pierre d'Arcis, who wrote in a memorandum of a painter confessing to painting the Shroud's images? In isolation his document is damning. But the skeptical inquirer, being true to his ways, must challenge such a claim with the full conspectus of what was being written at the time. Pierre's peers doubted is veracity and questioned his motives. It was all about money. Pierre was the bishop of Troyes. The Shroud was being exhibited at nearby Lirey and it was to that town that pilgrims with bags of coin were flocking. The d'Arcis memorandum is pointless. The skeptical inquirer is fully justified in his skepticism for no painter painted on a caramel substance and a surrounding clear substance that was a hundred times thinner than a single brush hair. 

The carbon 14 dating sample was invalid.

Did not carbon 14 demonstrate that the Shroud was medieval? Could it possibly be wrong? Carbon 14 dating, the skeptical inquirer knows, is useful for dating material going back about 50,000 years. And it is extraordinarily accurate for material less than 10,000 years old. Yes, there can be problems with contamination But the labs that do this work do a very good job of removing contamination with combinations of alkaline and acidic baths. And yes, absolute precision is impossible. In the Shroud carbon 14 samples there was less than one carbon 14 atom for every trillion or so carbon 12 and carbon 13 atoms. But the quantity of material was sufficient and the methods accurate enough to estimate that the material tested produced a statistically certain range of dates: 1260 to 1390 CE. Even so, there might be a reason to suspect some error.

There have been claims that a biological polymer was growing on the Shroud and that this could have affected the date. Not so! The National Science Foundation Mass Spectrometry Center of Excellence at the University of Nebraska, using highly sensitive pyrolysis-mass-spectrometry,

could not detect any such polymers on Shroud fibers.  Furthermore, it is well known that a biopolymer product would show the same carbon age as the Shroud because the organism would use fixed carbon from the cellulose fibers and not from the atmosphere. Similar claims that a scorching fire, in 1532, might have altered the carbon 14 isotope ratios are scientifically unsustainable. The skeptical inquirer is right to pooh-pooh such ideas.

But as the skeptical inquirer knows, material intrusion is a potential problem in carbon 14 dating. A classic example is the dating of peat from ancient bogs. Miniscule roots from much newer plants get entangled in the peat -- some roots having decomposed into newer peat -- and this will distort the results. Could something like this have affected the results of dating of the Shroud? As it turns out, chemical and visual analyses, done in just the last two years, show unmistakable proof of material intrusion of new linen fibers -- enough material, by some estimates, to make a 1st century cloth seem medieval. The discovery of alizarin dyes (from Madder root), a hydrous aluminum oxide mordant and plant gum along with twisted-in cotton fibers and spliced threads in the carbon 14 sample region shows that the sample area was discretely repaired. These substances are not found anywhere else on the Shroud. Shroud of Turin Story Breaking News

Other recent findings are intriguing

The skeptical inquirer knows about decomposition kinetics. He knows that the cloth is linen. Each thread of the cloth is made up of roughly a hundred fibers from a flax plant. The skeptical inquirer knows about lignin, a complex polymer compound, one of the constituents of flax fibers. He knows that lignin's chemical composition changes over time. He knows that if a microchemical test for vanillin in lignin is negative that the cloth is more than 1300 years old, twice the age that the carbon 14 dating estimated. 

In 2004, a startling discovery was made. A faint second face was found on the back of the Shroud. This second face was directly behind the face on the front of the cloth as though paint or stain had soaked through. But when we probe between the two facial images, when we look at the interior of the threads, when we examine individual fibers, we discover that nothing has soaked through. The faces are thin and superficial to the extreme outer surfaces of the Shroud.

History weighs in with arguments that support a very early Middle East provenance.

Whatever the Shroud of Turin is, it is not a painted, medieval fake-relic. The unmistakable images of a crucified man were not created by any known artistic method. And thus, the honest skeptical inquirer will turn to history for clues. In doing so he discovers that newly found, newly translated and newly interpreted documents provide a plausible historical scenario for something that is not a medieval fake-relic.

Almost certainly, an image-bearing piece of cloth taken from Edessa in 944 by the armed forces of Byzantine Emperor, a cloth described on that occasion by Gregory Referendarius, the archdeacon of Hagia Sophia, is the Shroud of Turin. This image-bearing cloth disappeared from Constantinople in 1204 in the hands of French crusaders. We can trace it to Athens in 1207. But there the trail grows cold. If the Edessa Cloth, later in Constantinople called the Holy Mandylion is indeed the Shroud it reemerges in the annals of history in Lirey about 1355. The gap of about 150 years is uncomfortable but such gaps are not unusual in the pursuit of history. It is in the plumbing and searching for details that historians find connections that bridge historical gaps, all too common gaps in all ancient history. The description by Gregory, a drawing from the late 1100s, tantalizing clues sifted from commonly redacted and exaggerated legends and letters and citations from documents that no longer exist: these things are plausible.

It may have ended up in Besançon. There is some reason to think this might be so. There is good reason to believe it was acquired by the French knight, Geoffrey de Charny by 1349 but not much earlier. We know, without any doubt, that it was displayed in Lirey just before Geoffrey was killed at the Battle of Poitiers. And there is no doubt, whatsoever, that cloth displayed in Lirey is the cloth that now resides in Turin.

Botched carbon 14 dating, images formed by the caramel-like substance, a plausible history that tracks back to the 6th century while suggesting an earlier provenance: all that is undeniable. But is that enough? Is the Shroud of Turin, as millions believe, the genuine burial shroud of the historical Jesus? While the evidence is good, it is not conclusive.

Some claims in support of authenticity are dubious.

Some claims, sometimes presented to try and establish the cloth's authenticity, just are not evidentiary. For instance, claims of barely perceptible images of Roman lepta coins over the eyes of the man is flimsy and so far lacks scientific confirmation. And speculation, sometimes touted as theory, that the images were formed by radiation released from a miraculous resurrection event, is scientifically preposterous. We need not debate resurrection or cerebrate on the physical nature of a miraculous resurrection. That work belongs to philosophers who might wonder if God, in performing miracles, might leave bits of sub-atomic particles lying about in all the right places, in just the right measures, at just the right time, to imprint, on purpose or by accident, an image on the cloth?

Radiation, almost certainly, could not have formed the caramel-like substance that makes up the images: not electromagnetic radiation; not ionizing particles such as protons, electrons, and alpha particles; and not non-ionizing particles such as neutrons. Enough energy to induce a chemical change in the super-thin film that holds the image would have visibly altered the characteristic molecular arrangement, the fibrillar structure of the flax fibers. That did not happen. 

In the historical context, some evidence is dubious. That the Shroud may have been the hands of the Knights Templar; or the Cathars (the Albigensians) in Languedoc or in Greece or hidden away in Constantinople, as some of proposed, is at best only possibilities. Possibilities don't close gaps and don't make for good history. The skeptical inquirer is right to question such arguments but not to assume that gaps mean there is no history.

It is the face on the Shroud that intrigues us the most.

The Shroud is a fourteen foot long piece of linen cloth. On one half of its length (the lower half in the accompanying picture), there is a frontal image of a man from head to foot. On the other half, upside down as though standing on his head, is an image of the man's backside. We can clearly see the shape of the man's head, torso and legs. We notice that his arms are before him and crossed at his. If we look carefully, we can see features of the man's face: his eyes, his nose, his mustache and beard.

It is that face that is the most intriguing issue for the skeptical inquirer. There is something in the passionate exactness of the picture, something of a sleight-of-hand quality that resonates with whatever we believe. The picture is quite astounding. To the unquestioning believer in the Shroud's authenticity, it is not an image made by the hand of an artist: God made the image or it is an unlikely accident of nature. On the other hand, the  hardened skeptic, both the atheist and the miracle-eschewing believer in God, cannot help but believe that the images are faked. He is as skeptical of the Shroud as much as the creationist-fundamentalist is skeptical about the evolution of the earth and its creatures. Each in his own way must reject the conclusions of science and history. It is to the honest skeptical inquirer, whether motivated by faith in the unexplained or by doubt born of modern sensibilities, that the quest for elusive truth belongs.

The skeptical inquirer knows well that the familiar face, the so photorealistic face that astounds is not the face that is actually on the Shroud. The face on the Shroud is bleary, ghostlike picture. It looks something like a soaked-in, blurred stain. However, when the Shroud of Turin is photographed --  something that happened for the first time in 1898 -- a startling image emerges on the photographer's film. The image on the negative, on the film, is a positive picture. That can only be so if the images on the Shroud are, themselves, negative images. What can that mean?

Are we to imagine, in an age before photography was invented, before anyone saw a photographic negative, that someone would or could create images like those on the Shroud? Why? How so, without an example of a continuous-tone, grayscale negative? Without a camera and film, how would an artisan know that he got it right? Perhaps, we might think, it was an accident. But surely, that is as improbably as Jackson Pollock dribbling paint onto a canvas from atop his twelve foot ladder and accidentally producing a perfect replica of the Mona Lisa.

There are plentiful odd qualities in the images.

Why does a computer plot of the image's color density produce a 3D terrain map? No pictorial work of art does so; nor does a photograph. Why can't you see the image if you stand very close to it? It really isn't a mystery; but it is very telling about the image. Why does the man look so gaunt? In reality, the image isn't of a narrow face but an optical illusion caused by the way the cloth was bleached makes us see the man as having a very thin face.

And why is the blood of the bloodstains red. It really is blood. That has been proven over and over by many scientists working independently of one another. Old blood normally turns black. The reasons it is red are simple. Ancient cloth, as it was manufactured in the the Middle East during the first century, was starched on the loom and then washed in suds of the Soapwort plant. Ingredients of this natural soap are hemolytic, which would keep the blood red. We know, as well, that the blood on the Shroud is rich in bilirubin, a bile pigment produced when a human body is under severe traumatic stress. Bilirubin is bright red and stays red.

The biggest mystery of all is, if the Shroud of Turin is a grave cloth which is something that we might infer, then how is it that it survived the grave? How is it that it it did not rot away? Why are there no signs of decomposition fluids that would occur within about three days? Why, indeed, was it separated from the body it covered?

This photo-rich website addresses many of these issues. It is organized like a museum website. Select a general topic, click on thumbnail picture, and browse through the dozens of pictures and the captions. Bookmark the site and visit often.


The true skeptical inquirer should not be confused with the magazine, Skeptical Inquirer. The Skeptical Inquirer is the journal of CSICOP, the "Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal," an organization that has included such scientific luminaries as Carl Sagan and Steven Jay Gould.

Skeptical Inquirer is an interesting and entertaining magazine. It usually does an excellent job of debunking outlandish myths, urban legends and all manner of unscientific claims. But when it comes to the Shroud of Turin it has failed. For the editors of Skeptical Inquirer, everything they find distasteful in antievolutionary creationism (and Christianity in general) is mimicked in pitiable fashion as they struggle to attack the Shroud's authenticity. They recast history to their own fancy. They ignore scientific facts unless they suits their purpose. Hilariously, without any sense of exegetical perception, they cite the "Christian Bible," as though they thought the text literally true, to argue that the Shroud is not authentic.

Were they honest to the principles of skeptical inquiry, the magazine would question the carbon 14 dating. As it is, in their failing, they will leave that to ethical, peer-reviewed, scientific journals. They would be skeptical of Walter McCrone. They would wonder why, of all the scientists who directly examined Shroud fibers, only Walter McCrone claimed to find paint. How is that possible if the documented, accessible, peer-reviewed spectral analysis proves otherwise? Why is it that McCrone's work cannot be reproduced by anyone? Why is it that he did not submit his work to peer review in the normal way that scientists announce their findings?

The Skeptical Inquirer magazine has fooled itself by not being an inquirer and not being truly skeptical; for skepticism fueled by selective use of information is not skepticism at all.

CLICK ON AN ICON BELOW FOR MORE DETAILS

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1 posted on 02/08/2005 10:03:06 AM PST by Swordmaker
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To: Alamo-Girl; HiTech RedNeck; Don Joe; Young Werther; RightWhale; SMEDLEYBUTLER; mjp; Jape; ...

Excellent rebuttal argument from Freeper Shroudie's website to the Skeptical Inquirer's FAQ on the Shroud of Turin.

Shoud of Turin PING!

As always if you want to participate on threads relating to the Shroud of Turin, Freepmail me to get on the PING list.


2 posted on 02/08/2005 10:06:24 AM PST by Swordmaker (Tagline now open, please ring bell.)
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To: Swordmaker

Here is the article from the Skeptical Inquirer by Joe Nickell




Claims of Invalid “Shroud” Radiocarbon Date Cut from Whole Cloth
Joe Nickell


Longtime Shroud of Turin devotee Ray Rogers, a retired research chemist, now admits there is the equivalent of a watercolor paint on the alleged burial cloth of Jesus. By tortuous logic and selective evidence, however, he uses the coloration to claim the “shroud” image was not the work of a medieval artist (Rogers 2004, 2005). Rogers follows many other shroud defenders in attempting to discredit the medieval date given by radiocarbon testing (Nickell 1998, 150–151).

In a paper published in Thermochimica Acta, Rogers (2005) claims that earlier carbon-14 dating tests—which proved the linen was produced between 1260 and 1390 (Damon et al. 1989)—were invalid because they were conducted on a sample taken from a medieval patch. “The radiocarbon sample has completely different chemical properties than the main part of the shroud relic,” Rogers told BBC News (“Turin” 2005).

In fact, the radiocarbon sample (a small piece cut from the “main body of the shroud” [Damon 1988, 612]) was destroyed by the testing. Rogers (2005) relied on two little threads allegedly left over from the sampling, [1] together with segments taken from an adjacent area in 1973. He cites pro-authenticity researchers who guessed that the carbon-14 sample came from a “rewoven area” of repair—“As unlikely as it seems,” Rogers admitted to one news source (Lorenzi 2005). Indeed, textile experts specifically made efforts to select a site for taking the radiocarbon sample that was away from patches and seams (Damon et al. 1989, 611–612).

Rogers compared the threads with some small samples from elsewhere on the Shroud, claiming to find differences between the two sets of threads that “prove” the radiocarbon sample “was not part of the original cloth” of the Turin shroud (as stated in his abstract [Rogers 2005, 189]).

The reported differences include the presence—allegedly only on the “radiocarbon sample”—of cotton fibers and a coating of madder root dye in a binding medium that his tests “suggest” is gum Arabic. He insists the sampled area was that of an interwoven medieval repair that was intentionally colored to match the “older, sepia-colored cloth” (Rogers 2005, 192, 193).

However, Rogers’ assertions to the contrary, both the cotton and the madder have been found elsewhere on the shroud. Both were specifically reported by famed microanalyst Walter McCrone (1996, 85) who was commissioned to examine samples taken by the Shroud of Turin Research Project (STURP). After McCrone discovered the image was rendered in tempera paint, STURP held him to a secrecy agreement, while statements were made to the press that no evidence of artistry was found. McCrone was then, he says, “drummed out” of the organization [Nickell 1998, 124–125; 2004, 193–194]. As evidence of its pro-authenticity bias, STURP’s leaders served on the executive committee of the Holy Shroud Guild.

Not only did McCrone find “occasional” cotton fibers on the Shroud, but the source of Rogers’ sample, Gilbert Raes, has since been challenged as to his claim, cited by Rogers (2005, 189), that “the cotton was an ancient Near Eastern variety.” In fact, others—including French textile expert Gabriel Vial and major pro-shroud author Ian Wilson (1998, 71, 97)—believe the cotton may be entirely incidental. They point out it could have come from the cotton gloves or clothing of the Turin’s cloth’s handlers or a similarly mundane source.

On the tape-lifted STURP samples (affixed to microscope slides), McCrone found a variety of substances (including mold spores and wax spatters). Major pigments were red ocher (in “body” areas) and vermilion (together with red ocher in the “blood” areas), contained in a collagen tempera binder. He also found the madder, [2] orpiment, azurite, and yellow ocher pigments, as well as paint fragments, including ultramarine and titanium white—together suggestive of the shroud’s origin in “an artist’s studio” (McCrone 1996, 85, 135)..

Astonishingly—and with serious implications to the spirit of peer review—Rogers omits any mention of McCrone’s findings from his report while insisting elsewhere, “let’s be honest about our science” (Rogers 2004).

Although Rogers is a research chemist, unlike McCrone he is not an internationally celebrated microanalyst with special expertise in examining questioned paintings. Working in his “home laboratory,” he did not, as far as his report informs, use a “blind” approach as McCrone did to mitigate against the subjectivity that has continually plagued the work of shroud advocates. Moreover, McCrone once referred to Rogers’ and his fellow STURP co-author’s “incompetence in light microscopy” and pointed out errors in the test procedures they relied on (McCrone 1996, 157, 158–171).

Rogers (2005) now also reports the presence of vanillin in the lignin of the radiocarbon-sample area, in contrast to its reported absence in other areas of the cloth. This is a dubious finding given his extremely limited samples. He attempts to date the shroud by the amount of the lignin decomposition but admits that that method can offer only an accuracy range of a whopping 1,700 years (contrasted with about 150 years by radiocarbon dating). He concedes that the decomposition could have been accelerated by the baking of the cloth in its reliquary that occurred during the fire of 1532, but thinks it unlikely the cloth is medieval.

However, apart from the fire damage, the cloth is remarkably well preserved for a reputed age of nearly 2000 years. Also, no examples of its complex herringbone weave are known from the time of Jesus when, in any case, burial cloths tended to be of plain weave (Nickell 1998, 35; Wilson 1998, 98–99, 188; Sox 1981). In addition, Jewish burial practice utilized—and the Gospel of John specifically describes for Jesus—multiple burial wrappings with a separate cloth over the face.

Other evidence of medieval fakery includes the shroud’s lack of historical record prior to the mid-fourteenth century—when a bishop reported the artist’s confession—as well as serious anatomical problems, the lack of wraparound distortions, the resemblance of the figure to medieval depictions of Jesus, and suspiciously bright red and picturelike “blood” stains which failed a battery of sophisticated tests by forensic serologists, among many other indicators. These facts argue against Rogers’ assertions that the shroud is neither a forgery nor a miracle—that “the blood is real blood” [3] and the image was produced by “a rotting body” (Rogers 2004).

Science has proved the Shroud of Turin a medieval fake, but defenders of authenticity turn the scientific method on its head by starting with the desired conclusion and working backward to the evidence—picking and choosing and reinterpreting as necessary. It is an approach I call “shroud science.”

Notes

Ian Wilson (1998, 187) reported that the trimmings “are no longer extant.”
Red lake colors like madder were specifically used by medieval artists to overpaint vermilion in depicting “blood” (Nickell 1998, 130).
Rogers (2004) does acknowledge that claims the blood is type AB “are nonsense.”


References


Damon, P.E., et al. 1989. Radiocarbon dating of the Shroud of Turin. Nature 337 (February): 611–615.

Lorenzi, Rossella. 2005. Turin shroud older than thought. News in Science, January 26.

McCrone, Walter. 1996. Judgment Day for the Turin Shroud. Chicago: Microscope Publications.

Nickell, Joe. 1998. Inquest on the Shroud of Turin: Latest Scientific Findings. Amherst, N.Y.: Prometheus Books.

———. 2004. The Mystery Chronicles. Lexington, Ky.: The University Press of Kentucky.

Rogers, Raymond N. 2004. Shroud not hoax, not miracle. Letter to the editor, Skeptical Inquirer 28:4 (July/August), 69; with response by Joe Nickell.

———. 2005. Studies on the radiocarbon sample from the Shroud of Turin. Thermochimica Acta 425: 189–194.

Sox, H. David. 1981. Quoted in David F. Brown, Interview with H. David Sox, New Realities 4:1 (1981), 31.

Turin shroud “older than thought.” 2005. BBC News, January 27.

Wilson, Ian. 1998. The Blood and the Shroud. New York: The Free Press.


5 posted on 02/08/2005 10:14:02 AM PST by Swordmaker (Tagline now open, please ring bell.)
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To: Swordmaker

bump


6 posted on 02/08/2005 10:16:50 AM PST by pgkdan
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To: Swordmaker
As evidence, the chain of custody down through the centuries, makes the "shroud" inadmissible. "Experts", are wrong just as many times as they are right. The fact that the shroud was found in the Middle Ages during the period of the Hundred Years War, tends to suggest that it is a manufactured artifact. A common occurrence since the death of Christ. Many "Christian Relics" were fabricated and many monasteries and aristocrats charged the faithful money to gaze or touch these fakes.

It amazes me that people want or need to believe in the authenticity of such an item. Will it make all Christians, more Christian if it is, indeed, the shroud that Christ's body was wrapped after his crucifixion? It doesn't matter to me. Faith is the belief in that which is unseen, unproven. The Shroud of Turin reminds me of Dumbo the Elephant's magic feather. The feather wasn't really magic, Dumbo had a real talent. Anybody wanna buy a "Magic Feather"?

8 posted on 02/08/2005 10:25:50 AM PST by elbucko (Feral Republican)
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To: Swordmaker

I really appreciate your pings to this thread. I had not seen the "Shroudie's" website. So this is great!

God Bless!


15 posted on 02/08/2005 11:19:15 PM PST by Vets_Husband_and_Wife
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To: Alamo-Girl; HiTech RedNeck; Don Joe; Young Werther; RightWhale; SMEDLEYBUTLER; mjp; Jape; ...
I am re-pinging the Shroud of Turin ping list to this thread because two list members have contacted me to say that although the list got pinged, they didn't. In addition, many of our usual ping list members have not made comments. I have no way of checking who did or did not get alerted to this thread so I decided to re-ping.

Sorry for repinging those that got their ping the first time... if you did originally, come on back because there is another article added to the thread.

This thread contains 3 new articles on the Shroud and the latest scientific finding that invalidates the 1988 C14 tests.

PING!

18 posted on 02/10/2005 12:19:16 AM PST by Swordmaker (Tagline now open, please ring bell.)
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To: Swordmaker
This site has several obscure references, both pro and con, concerning the Shroud of Turin.
25 posted on 02/10/2005 2:36:52 PM PST by <1/1,000,000th%
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To: Swordmaker
The men called the Nights Templer an ancient order of whom my great great grandfather spoke of being one was charged with the safety of the Shroud. I wish I knew more.
50 posted on 02/13/2005 4:20:02 PM PST by BellStar (Pray for our heroes...)
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To: Swordmaker; blam; FairOpinion; Ernest_at_the_Beach; SunkenCiv; 24Karet; 3AngelaD; ...
Thanks Swordmaker. This may be of interest to GGG listers also.
Please FREEPMAIL me if you want on, off, or alter the "Gods, Graves, Glyphs" PING list --
Archaeology/Anthropology/Ancient Cultures/Artifacts/Antiquities, etc.
The GGG Digest
-- Gods, Graves, Glyphs (alpha order)

66 posted on 02/15/2005 10:46:16 PM PST by SunkenCiv (Ted "Kids, I Sunk the Honey" Kennedy is just a drunk who's never held a job (or had to).)
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To: Swordmaker
I think that the biggest case for this not being some mere Medieval forgery is the detail that it contains. No Medieval forger would need to add the sorts of details needed to satisfy modern examiners for it to pass as authentic and it makes little sense for a Medieval forger to include details in the crucified body, such as the nails through the wrists and the crown of thorns being more of a cap, that are somewhat different from the popular interpretation of the Biblical accounts. I've also read that the shroud is consistent with Jewish burial customs of the time, which is also something I doubt many Medieval forgers would worry about. If this is a Medieval forgery, I suspect that either (A) it's a copy of the real thing or (B) they crucified a man, perhaps a Jewish man, contemporary with the forgery just as Jesus was crucified according to the Gospels, in order to get the details right. And given that the Medieval world wasn't filled with invetigators with the knowledge of Quincy, Ellis Peters' fictional Brother Cadfael and Umberto Eco's fictional Brother William of Baskerville notwithstanding, I find it difficult to understand why a Medieval forger would feel the need to go through the effort to be so accurate. It's not like there were CSI teams roaming the Medieval world. We're talking about people who thought that worms could spontaneously spring to life out of mud and who bled people with leeches when they were sick. There is a reason why calling a scientific investigation or medical procedure "Medievel" isn't a complement.
68 posted on 02/16/2005 8:22:28 AM PST by Question_Assumptions
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