Posted on 11/23/2016 6:01:04 PM PST by Loud Mime
I am studying our Civil War; anybody have any recommendations for reading?
I don't think the last one is done.
DiogenesLamp: "They I dare not.
The consequences of doing so are too horrible for them me to contemplate.
Nobody wants to think of themselves myself as being on the side of evil. They I want to believe that what their my side ... did was moral and just, and the thought that their ancestors were my side was the instruments of tyranny is to repulsive for them me to allow it any credence."
I know, pal, it's hard to do self-analysis, and you make lots of mistakes, so I took the trouble to correct them for you.
Sure, no problem, you're welcome, any time.
Once again, your rebuttals are so magnificent that I am left unable to provide a worthy response.
There is some truth to that.
The south wanted to secede NOT JUST to keep slavery, but to protect states rights.
They did not think The Federal Government should be telling states they had to stop owning slaves. (Remember - it was a world-wide accepted practice before those times. Some people actuall SOLD THEMSELVES into slavery because it was a guaranteed job and food and shelter.)
Imagine if instead of slavery they fought over the government forcing them to, oh.. I dunno.. buy health insurance?
I’m agreeing with you and differentiating from the idiot who claims that Lincoln pursued deportation.
That's only because you know nothing of real history.
In fact, because of the Constitution's 3/5 rule among other reasons, US political power from 1788 to 1860 was centered on Southern Democrats, often by huge majorities.
So nothing happened they seriously opposed, and what they seriously wanted, they eventually got.
Pick any example: SCOTUS 1857 Dred Scott decision.
Yes, that might have changed after the 1860 election, but Deep South Fire Eaters never stuck around long enough to find out.
Having potentially lost control for the first time ever, they immediately bolted for the doors, without waiting for any actual negative consequences.
You need more truth telling.
Thanks for that clarification.
IIRC, Jefferson's plans included mandatory deportation of freed-slaves.
Lincoln's idea was strictly voluntary emigration of freed-slaves who wished to leave.
I think it's fair to say that even in 1860, most people could not imagine former slaves living peacefully with their former slave-masters.
Hence plans for deportation or voluntary emigration.
Thanks!
Mandatory deportation AND billing the Northern states for the costs.
I think it's fair to say that even in 1860, most people could not imagine former slaves living peacefully with their former slave-masters.
I think from Lincoln's standpoint viz-a-viz colonization was that blacks in the U.S. faced a future where they were not considered citizens and where the legal discrimination and lack of rights that they endured in the North was even more prevalent in the South. And end to slavery would just make things worse. Why not assist blacks in carving out their own life free from the burdens placed on them in the U.S.? Where they could run their own show? And where really was he wrong?
“You must really loathe free markets to identify them with slavery.”
Apparently he has not read Mr. Colwell’s pamphlet page 22 where he refers to Southern agriculture as has “...taken its present shape by the free choice of those concerned it it. So far as it has taken form in this country, it is the offspring of the most perfect free trade in the world”.
Since Mr. Colwell’s pamphlet reflects that position, his work must also be discounted.
But neither slavery nor states rights were in any way threatened in November 1860 when Deep South Fire Eaters began organizing to declare secession.
In fact, they still ran the show in Washington DC, through their Doughfaced puppet, President Buchanan.
So they declared their secessions "at pleasure" in anticipation of what the Federal Government might do at some future time, now that "Ape" Lincoln and his "Black Republicans" were coming to office, in March 1861.
We know that even into the late 1850’s the abolitionists were a minority voice, so there was no one of import or office that was “telling states they had to stop owning slaves”. Certainly not the Lincoln administration. There were voices who continued to object to the expansion of slavery into the western territories - as there had been since the nations founding.
The only “states rights” that the southern states ever demanded was the right to keep slavery, expand slavery, and compel northern states to be an unwilling partner in the Peculiar Institution.
As to the status-quo of slavery internationally, the United States was one of the very last civilized countries to prohibit the practice.
Ha! Oh, that Jeffy-boy, what a comedian he was.
But even so, his slave-holder buddies would have none of such a plan, then or any time later.
"While a navigation code founded in 1790 and 1792, and developed in 1816, 1817, and 1820, after the model of the then existing English code, has been retained in modified form through enactments in subsequent years, a system of general ship-subsidies, though repeatedly proposed, has never been adopted by the United States. From 1793 to 1866 bounties were given to fishing vessels and men employed in the bank and other deep-sea fisheries, but no subsidies to the merchant marine were granted till 1845, and these were only postal subsidies—payments in excess of an equivalent for services to be rendered in ocean mail-carriage. The law enacted that year had for its declared purpose the encouragement of American ocean steamship-building and running. With this act, therefore, the real history of Government aid to domestic shipping in this country begins.
"At the time of the adoption of this policy America was still leading the world in ocean sailing-ships with her splendid fleets of fast-sailing packets and “clippers”, while England had taken the lead in steamships. The law of 1845 was the culmination of a move begun in Congress in 1841, the year after the first Cunarder had crossed from Liverpool to Halifax and Boston. Its aim was to parry England's bold stroke for maritime supremacy with her State-aided steamship lines, and directly to “protect our merchant shipping from this new and strange menace.” The first move of 1841 was for an appropriation of a million dollars annually for foreign-mails carriage in American-owned ships."
More from Bacon:
“The law of 1845 (March 3) authorized the postmaster-general to contract with American ship-owners exclusively for this service to be performed in American vessels, steamships preferred, and by American citizens, for a period of from four to ten years, with the proviso that Congress by joint resolve might at any time terminate a contract.
“The subsidy was embodied in the rates of postage thus fixed: upon all letters and packets not exceeding a half-ounce in weight,...and for every additional half-ounce or fraction of an ounce, fifteen cents; to any of the West India Islands, or islands... inland postage to be added in all cases. The postmaster-general was to give the preference to such bidder as should propose to carry the mails in a steamship rather than a sailing-ship.
“Contractors were to turn their ships over to the Government upon demand for conversion into ships of war, the Government to pay therefor the fair full value, as ascertained by appraisers. The postmaster-general was further authorized to make ten-years’ contracts for mail carriage from place to place in the United States in steamboats by sea, or on the Gulf of Mexico, or on the Mississippi River up to New Orleans, on the same conditions regarding the transfer of the ships to the Government when required for use as war ships.
“The next year, 1846, in the annual post-office appropriations act (June 19), provision was made for the application of twenty-five thousand dollars toward the establishment of a line of mail steamers between the United States and Bremen; and early in 1847 (February 3) a contract was duly concluded for a Bremen and Havre service, the first under the law of 1845.”
The Bremen and Harve service was conducted with ships owned in New York.
If I follow it correctly, PeaRidge's argument seems to go like this:
And that's the real reason making Deep South declarations of secession "necessary", they say!
For example, if you were a Southerner of means, which would seem the better investment to you -- building & owning a ship to transport cotton to Europe, or buying land & slaves to produce & sell cotton?
Well, the numbers clearly show that slave-grown cotton was both more profitable and more reliable than shipping.
For one thing, ships normally only depreciate, whereas slave families over time grew and appreciated.
So it could have nothing to do with alleged Washington discrimination against Southerner shippers and everything to do with where were Southerners best advised to invest their money?
Apparently Pea feels that the south couldn’t afford to wait for Title IX to grant them “equal” (guaranteed) opportunity to a piece of the pie.
You ought to know the difference. Hasn't the country been talking about it long enough.
And no, the slave system didn't take shape "by the free choice of those concerned in it."
But that doesn't change the basic point that the Deep South states were as dependent on New York (and the North and Britain) as anybody else anywhere was dependent on them.
Indeed, regions that concentrate on producing raw materials and don't develop industries and leave their financial affairs in the hands of others, are more dependent than those who diversify their economy.
“This was a five years’ contract entered into with the Ocean Steam Navigation Company, upon the basis of an earlier agreement (February 1846) with Edward Mills of New York, which Mr. Mills had transferred to the new organization. The subsidy was fixed at one hundred thousand dollars a year for each ship going by Cowes to Bremen and back to New York once in two months a year, and seventy-five thousand dollars a year for each ship going by Cowes to Havre and back to New York.
“The contractors were to build within a year's time four first-class steamships of not less than 1400 tons, nor less than a thousand horsepower; and were to run their line “with greater speed to the distance than is performed by the Cunard Line between Boston and Liverpool and back.”
“Provision for the subsidy thus called for was promptly made in this item in the post-office appropriation bill for the ensuing year, approved March 2: “for transportation by steam-ships between New York and Bremen according to the contract with Edward Mills, $258,609.”
“The next step was the enactment of a law which had for its declared objects “to provide efficient mail services, to encourage navigation and commerce, and to build up a powerful fleet in case of war.”
“This measure, approved March 3, 1847, entitled “An act to provide for the building and equipment of four naval steamships,” made provision for the construction, with Government aid, of merchant mail-steamships under the supervision of the Navy Department that they might be rendered suitable if needed for war service.
“The act directed the secretary of the navy to accept on the part of the Government certain proposals that had been made for the carriage of the United States mails to foreign ports in American-built and American-owned steamships. These proposals had been submitted to the postmaster-general (March 6, 1846) by Edward K. Collins and associates (James Brown and Stewart Brown) of New York, and A.G. Sloo of Cincinnati: one for mail transportation by steamship between New York and Liverpool, semimonthly, the other between New York and New Orleans, Havana, and Chagres, twice a month.
“The secretary was directed to contract with Messrs. Collins and Sloo in accordance with the provisions laid down in this act. These required that the steamers be built under the inspection of naval constructors and be acceptable to the Navy Department; that each ship carry four passed midshipmen of the navy to serve as watch-officers, and a mail agent approved by the postmaster-general.
“Mr. Sloo’s ships for his West India service were to be commanded by officers of the navy not below the grade of lieutenant. The secretary was further directed to contract for mail-carriage beyond the Isthmus,—from Panama up the Pacific coast to some point in the Territory of Oregon, once a month each way; but this service could be performed in either steam or sailing ships, as should be deemed more expedient.”
It is clear in this passage that New York, Cincinnati, and Philadelphia companies were receiving the contracts for mail or for the purpose of making voyages on certain schedules.
The amounts received were sufficient to underwrite the costs of constructing multiple vessels. Congress required that these ships meet military specifications and be available to the Navy in time of war.
The government was financing the growth of this business.
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