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To: All
There seems to be ongoing misunderstanding of issue: (taking up where left off)

“This was a five years’ contract entered into with the Ocean Steam Navigation Company, upon the basis of an earlier agreement (February 1846) with Edward Mills of New York, which Mr. Mills had transferred to the new organization. The subsidy was fixed at one hundred thousand dollars a year for each ship going by Cowes to Bremen and back to New York once in two months a year, and seventy-five thousand dollars a year for each ship going by Cowes to Havre and back to New York.

“The contractors were to build within a year's time four first-class steamships of not less than 1400 tons, nor less than a thousand horsepower; and were to run their line “with greater speed to the distance than is performed by the Cunard Line between Boston and Liverpool and back.”

“Provision for the subsidy thus called for was promptly made in this item in the post-office appropriation bill for the ensuing year, approved March 2: “for transportation by steam-ships between New York and Bremen according to the contract with Edward Mills, $258,609.”

“The next step was the enactment of a law which had for its declared objects “to provide efficient mail services, to encourage navigation and commerce, and to build up a powerful fleet in case of war.”

“This measure, approved March 3, 1847, entitled “An act to provide for the building and equipment of four naval steamships,” made provision for the construction, with Government aid, of merchant mail-steamships under the supervision of the Navy Department that they might be rendered suitable if needed for war service.

“The act directed the secretary of the navy to accept on the part of the Government certain proposals that had been made for the carriage of the United States mails to foreign ports in American-built and American-owned steamships. These proposals had been submitted to the postmaster-general (March 6, 1846) by Edward K. Collins and associates (James Brown and Stewart Brown) of New York, and A.G. Sloo of Cincinnati: one for mail transportation by steamship between New York and Liverpool, semimonthly, the other between New York and New Orleans, Havana, and Chagres, twice a month.

“The secretary was directed to contract with Messrs. Collins and Sloo in accordance with the provisions laid down in this act. These required that the steamers be built under the inspection of naval constructors and be acceptable to the Navy Department; that each ship carry four passed midshipmen of the navy to serve as watch-officers, and a mail agent approved by the postmaster-general.

“Mr. Sloo’s ships for his West India service were to be commanded by officers of the navy not below the grade of lieutenant. The secretary was further directed to contract for mail-carriage beyond the Isthmus,—from Panama up the Pacific coast to some point in the Territory of Oregon, once a month each way; but this service could be performed in either steam or sailing ships, as should be deemed more expedient.”

It is clear in this passage that New York, Cincinnati, and Philadelphia companies were receiving the contracts for mail or for the purpose of making voyages on certain schedules.

The amounts received were sufficient to underwrite the costs of constructing multiple vessels. Congress required that these ships meet military specifications and be available to the Navy in time of war.

The government was financing the growth of this business.

640 posted on 12/08/2016 1:49:05 PM PST by PeaRidge
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To: PeaRidge; x; rockrr; DiogenesLamp
PeaRidge quoting: "The act directed the secretary of the navy to accept on the part of the Government certain proposals that had been made for the carriage of the United States mails to foreign ports in American-built and American-owned steamships.
These proposals had been submitted to the postmaster-general (March 6, 1846) by Edward K. Collins and associates (James Brown and Stewart Brown) of New York, and A.G. Sloo of Cincinnati: one for mail transportation by steamship between New York and Liverpool, semimonthly, the other between New York and New Orleans, Havana, and Chagres, twice a month."

Several points should be noted here:

  1. Even today some civilian equipment is built to military specifications with the idea that it could be called on in time of war or emergency.
    And example is civilian air-liners specially reinforced to carry combat troops & equipment.

  2. Collins is mentioned here, and the Collins Line went bankrupt in 1857 despite government subsidies.
    So even subsidies did not guarantee success.

  3. That Sloo was from Cincinnati tells us: "New York business interests" did not, after all, control everything.
    Another PeaRidge post mentions a Charleston Line, which he says was actually New York owned, but must have had major Charleston interests in it to carry such a name.

  4. Most important we should note these government subsidies effected only a handful of "hi-tech" (for the time) high-speed mail carriers having nothing to do with hundreds & hundreds of every-day working ships required to move America's products along rivers, inland waterways and out to trans-oceanic ports.
    So PeaRidge's claim that subsidies provided Northerners with monopolistic powers they used to extract 40% of slave-grown cotton revenues just doesn't stand up to closer examinations.

PeaRidge quoting: "The amounts received were sufficient to underwrite the costs of constructing multiple vessels.
Congress required that these ships meet military specifications and be available to the Navy in time of war.
The government was financing the growth of this business."

Which totaled up to maybe 1% of all the shipping used by US citizens at the time, and in any case was not restricted to New Yorkers.

644 posted on 12/09/2016 6:24:06 AM PST by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective...)
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To: All
There was some question about the ownership of The Charleston Line. It was founded by Anson Phelpsz, industrialist and philanthropist.

Born March 24, 1781 in Simsbury, Connecticut. Died November 30, 1853 (aged 72) New York City, New York

Known for Founder Phelps Dodge Mining Corporation. Beginning with a saddlery business, he founded Phelps, Dodge & Co. in 1833 as an export-import steam shipping business with his sons-in-laws William E. Dodge and Daniel James based as partners in Liverpool, England. His third son-in-law, James Boulter Stokes, became a partner some years later. He founded the Charleston Line.

Later in the 19th century after the senior Phelps’ death, Phelps Dodge acquired mining interests and companies in the American West, and became known primarily as a mining company.

To continue the issue of the growth of the shipping subsidy and steam ship development: (again from Bacon)

“All the contracts thus provided for were concluded the same year. Each was to run for ten years. The first executed was that with Mr. Sloo. It called for five steamships of not less than 1500 tons, and a semi-monthly service. The line was to touch at Charleston, if practicable, and at Savannah. The ships were to have engines by direct action; and each ship was to be sheathed with copper.

“The subsidy was fixed at two hundred and ninety thousand dollars a year, a rate of $1.83-1/2 per mile, the distance to be sailed out and back being 158,000 miles. Mr. Sloo immediately set over his contract to George Law, Marshall O. Roberts, and Bowes McIlvaine, of New York. The second contract was for the Pacific service, connecting with the mail by the Sloo line across the Isthmus. This was made with Arnold Harris of Arkansas. It provided for a monthly service between Panama and Astoria, Oregon, calling at San Diego, Monterey, and San Francisco, with a subsidy of one hundred and ninety-nine thousand dollars per annum.

“Three steamers were to be furnished, two of not less than a thousand tons each. Upon receiving the contract Mr. Harris immediately transferred it to W.H. Aspinwall of New York, representing the newly formed Pacific Mail Steamship Company.

“The third was the Collins contract. This stipulated for a semi-monthly service between New York and Liverpool during the eight open months of the year, and a monthly service through the four winter months, with five steamers, each of not less than 2000 tons and engines of a thousand horsepower. The first ship was to be ready for service in eighteen months after the date of the contract, November 1, 1847. The subsidy was fixed at $19,250 per twenty round trips, or three hundred and eighty-five thousand dollars a year, a rate of $3.11 a mile for sailing about 124,000 miles.

“By subsequent acts the secretary of the navy was authorized to advance twenty-five thousand dollars a month on each of the ships called for by these several contracts from the time of their launching to their finish; and the date of the completion of the first Collins steamer and the opening of the New York and Liverpool service was extended to June 1, 1850.

“At the same time that the secretary of the navy was executing these contracts the postmaster-general under the authority of an act “to establish certain Post Routes and for other purposes,” also approved March 3, 1847, was contracting for a steamship mail-service between Charleston and Havana, with a subsidy of forty-five thousand dollars per annum. This contract was entered into with M.C. Mordecai of Charleston, who agreed to furnish steamships suitable for war purposes, and to perform a monthly service. Several other propositions for steamship service to various foreign countries were made to the postmaster-general at this time, but none was accepted.

The pioneer Bremen-Havre line began its service on the first day of June 1847, with two steamers. These were the Washington and the Hermann, built in New York, strong and large, of 1640 tons and 1734 tons, respectively, side-wheelers, bark-rigged. At first they made the run to Bremen in from twelve to seventeen days, much better time than the average clipper. But up to 1851 they had no regular schedule of sailings, and, their speed being unsatisfactory, few mails were sent by them. The subsidy payments, therefore, were made for each voyage separately.

“They had also ceased to command the patronage of travellers. Nevertheless, as a committee of the Senate in 1850 reported, they were believed to have been “profitable to their owners as freight vessels, and of essential service in promoting the interests of American commerce.” The full service, with twelve trips to Bremen and twelve to Havre, was finally begun in 1851, when two more, and larger ships,—the Franklin and the Humboldt, each of 2184 tons, were added to the Havre line.

650 posted on 12/09/2016 2:47:20 PM PST by PeaRidge
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