Posted on 07/01/2003 10:22:12 AM PDT by ksen
If Luke testifies to Peter and Paul, who testifies to Luke? Who told you that John is the author of the Gospel bearing his name, or Matthew, or Mark?
SD
If you cast a doubt on part, you cast a doubt on all.
No offense but its another attempt to read Trinitarian theology retroactively back into the scriptures. The Lord was in the business of redeeming before the Messiah's appointed time. Do a search of the word "redeemer" and you'll see.
As far as God the Father is concerned. Paul said:
1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
One God, the Father pretty much explains it.
The Spirit is "Ruach", The breath of God. The presense of God in the earth. No reason to get the heeby jeeby's because the Comforter was refferred to as a "He" once in the entire NT.
Two questions ...1. What does it mean (to you) that Yeshua is God's only begotten son?
2. Why do you believe that the begetting of Yeshua occurred at his baptism (i.e. what supports this belief for you) ?
Before I answer these and since I've already answered a couple of your previous questions. What are your views concerning pre-existence of Messiah?
Okay, ... but, while I pull this together, ... may I present, ... for your consideration, the following question as well ?
How do you interpret the following passage ?Matthew 12:1-13When Yeshua says that “ … in this place is one greater than the temple,” … who do you believe that he is referring to ?
1 At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat.
2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.
3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;
4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?
5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple
7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
When Yeshua says that “ … the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day,” … who do you believe that he is referring to ?
I agree. My beloved Messiah is greater than the temple. Does that make Him God? No.
When Yeshua says that “ … the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day,” … who do you believe that he is referring to ?
To himself. The Son of man. Lord is equivilant to master. This verse does nothing to make Him God either.
Mom, you are more right than you may know.
Rediscovering the "historical Jesus" isn't unique to the 20th century post-modern era, but has been attempted by many differnt sects who diverged from mainstream Christianity. Anti-trinitarians existed from the dawn of Christianity.
This is nothing more than the same old Arian bullcrap repeated ad nauseum.
-- Heb. 1:1-3 [NIV]
Game, set, match.
When Yeshua says that “ … in this place is one greater than the temple,” … who do you believe that he is referring to ?
I agree. My beloved Messiah is greater than the temple. Does that make Him God? No.
When Yeshua says that “ … the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day,” … who do you believe that he is referring to ?
To himself. The Son of man. Lord is equivilant to master. This verse does nothing to make Him God either.
I agree, as well.
There is not enough evidence here to conclude that Yeshua is God.
But, ... may we conclude ... that he was someone greater than an ordinary man (like you or me) ?
Maybe all the Word Logos is a Word...?
Same ol' tired Trinitarian verses used by anti-Messiah polythiests for 2,000 years. Big deal. God had the concept of Messiah planned when he created the Universe. Yawn!
Absolutley.
But, it IS the Father/God/Yahweh
Isa 49:26
And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I the LORD (3068) [am] thy Saviour and thy Redeemer , the mighty One (46) of Jacob.
from the Hebrew
46 'abiyr aw-beer' from 82; mighty (spoken of God):--mighty (one).
1) strong, mighty - used only to describe God
2) the Strong - old name for God (poetic) AV - might (One) 6; 6
from the Hebrew
3068 Yhovah yeh-ho-vaw' from 1961; (the) self-Existent or Eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God:--Jehovah, the Lord. Compare 3050, 3069.
Jehovah = "the existing One"
1) the proper name of the one true God
a) unpronounced except with the vowel pointings of 0136
3050 Yahh yaw contraction for 3068, and meaning the same; Jah, the sacred name:--Jah, the Lord, most vehement. Compare names in "-iah," "- jah."
1) Jah (Jehovah in the shortened form)
a) the proper name of the one true God
b) used in many compounds
1) names beginning with the letters 'Je'
2) names ending with 'iah' or 'jah'
There is nothing within those definitions that indicate any trinity.
Isa 49:26
And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I the LORD [am] thy Saviour and thy Redeemer , the mighty One of Jacob.
Words have meanings. Yahweh could have said 'trinity' in that verse, but He DIDN'T, He said ONE.
Ok, I'll lay off the Spirit personage for now since it's not germane to the larger point I'm trying to make.
In the Isaiah passage someone is sending someone else. The someone being sent is the "LORD (Jehovah) the Redeemer", the some one doing the sending is "the Lord (Adonai) GOD (Jehovah)."
Is Jehovah sending Himself? Who is Adonai Jehovah sending and who is this Jehovah that is being sent?
They're classics because the are definitive. Reject them, and you reject Christianity. Reject Christianity, do not pass Go, do not collect $200.
God had the concept of Messiah planned when he created the Universe. Yawn!
Agreed. But what is the Messiah?
41 ¶ While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
42 "What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?" "The son of David," they replied.
43 He said to them, "How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him ‘Lord’? For he says,
44 "‘The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet." ‘
45 If then David calls him ‘Lord,’ how can he be his son?" 46 No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions.
-- Mat. 22:41-46Remember: the Jews sought to stone Jesus Christ because, "You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God." (Jn 6:33). They didn't want to kill him for claiming to be sent from God -- many before had made that claim, gathered a following, and died a violent death leading his blind acolytes into battle. No, Jesus claimed to be God.
Don't believe it? Fine. But don't go around with this patronising bullcrap about Jesus being Messiah but not God.
But, ... may we conclude ... that he was someone greater than an ordinary man (like you or me) ?
Absolutley.
In what way would you say Yeshua is greater than men ... such that he is referred to as ... " ... God's only begotten ... " ?
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