PRIEST'S WORDS SPARK WALKOUT IN CHURCH

Troy Record ^ | March 25, 2003 | Jeff Buell and Kate Perry

[vrwc1]

ALL scripture is given by God, and is profitable for doctrine...

You completely ignore the rest of the verse:

"and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."

This states quite clearly that by scripture, man is thoroughly and completely equipped for all good works.

The Bible denies that it is sufficient as the complete rule of faith.

Amazing - if you think the inspired word of God is not sufficient for your faith and salvation and you feel that you need to add to it, then I am sorry and afraid for you.

Paul says that much Christian teaching is to be found in the tradition which is handed down by word of mouth (2 Tim. 2:2). He instructs us to "stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thess. 2:15).

Where do you think Paul got those "traditions"? Do you think he just made them up and that they are extra-biblical? The Bereans are commended in Acts for checking everything that Paul said to verify that it conformed to scripture:

Acts 17:10-11
And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming [thither] went into the synagogue of the Jews. These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

If Paul had told the Bereans that they could pay or pray their relatives out of some place called purgatory they would have searched the scriptures and told him he was wrong - first that there's no purgatory and secondly that the only payment for sin is the blood of the perfect sacrifice Jesus Christ.

This oral teaching was accepted by Christians, just as they accepted the written teaching that came to them later. Jesus told his disciples: "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me" (Luke 10:16). The Church, in the persons of the apostles, was given the authority to teach by Christ; the Church would be his representative. He commissioned them, saying, "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations" (Matt. 28:19).

As pointed out above, this oral teaching must always be in accordance with scripture.

And how was this to be done? By preaching, by oral instruction: "So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ" (Rom. 10:17). The Church would always be the living teacher. It is a mistake to limit "Christ’s word" to the written word only or to suggest that all his teachings were reduced to writing. The Bible nowhere supports either notion.

As stated above, this oral teaching must always be in accordance with scripture. Also, you have misquoted Romans 10:17. The correct translation is: So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. The "word of God" is plainly a reference to scripture. What translation are you using? Also, if you believe that the church is a "living teacher" in the sense that liberals believe the Constitution is a "living, breathing document", I completely reject that notion, otherwise we are simply allowing for all sorts of erroneous, unscriptural doctrine of men to be presented as God's word.

Further, it is clear that the oral teaching of Christ would last until the end of time. "’But the word of the Lord abides for ever.’ That word is the good news which was preached to you" (1 Pet. 1:25). Note that the word has been "preached"—that is, communicated orally. This would endure. It would not be supplanted by a written record like the Bible (supplemented, yes, but not supplanted), and would continue to have its own authority.

So you feel that the Bible is merely supplemental to oral tradition? Wow, that is totally contrary to what the Bible itself teaches. Let me guess, you must be a Mormon or Jehovah Witness. Once again, your translation differes significantly from the King James, which reads: "But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you."

This is made clear when the apostle Paul tells Timothy: "[W]hat you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also" (2 Tim. 2:2). Here we see the first few links in the chain of apostolic tradition that has been passed down intact from the apostles to our own day. Paul instructed Timothy to pass on the oral teachings (traditions) that he had received from the apostle. He was to give these to men who would be able to teach others, thus perpetuating the chain. Paul gave this instruction not long before his death (2 Tim. 4:6–8), as a reminder to Timothy of how he should conduct his ministry.

If there was something so important that it needed to passed down the "apostolic chain" to today, don't you think Paul would have written it down? Why would he leave it to chance? This supposed perpetuated chain of oral tradition is simply a way for extra-biblical, non-scriptural teachings to be passed off as doctrine, something that a Berean would point out immediately.

I pray that if you are a part of a church that teaches such things, that you will seriously consider examining everything with scripture, as the Bereans were commended for doing.

[Notwithstanding]

Aaaaaaaah - great observation!

Many of us have concluded your observation is even more evidence to support the notion that unity within the Church is logical.

If all believers are free to interpret the Word as they feel inspired, then we cannot have unity. (Plenty of examples, but I cite one no-brainer: many "gay" men claim that the bible - as they interpret it - does not condemn homosexual acts).

[Notwithstanding]

"...and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."

This states quite clearly that WITHOUT scripture, man CANNOT BE thoroughly and completely equipped for all good works. But these actual words of scripture do not indicate that NOTHING ELSE is necessary in order to be thoroughly equipped.

My momma fed me 3 meals a day - but in order that my nutrition might be complete, she gave me a vitamin pill.
The vitamin pill was essential to my complete nutrition, but so were the 3 meals!

Same with scripture - it is essential - thats all this passage can ever mean (UNLESS YOU ADD WORDS TO IT THAT ARE NOT PRESENT).

[Notwithstanding]

The bible nowhere states that scripture is sufficient in order to be perfected.

In fact, millions of Christians over the centuries observed the sabbath in huge church buildings that did not have loudpeakers. They may never have heard or read the bible (many were illiterate), but instead only heard preaching about what is in the Word. And I am sure many of them are saints in heaven - never having heard or read the actual word.

[vrwc1]

"perfect, throughly furnished"

This states clearly that nothing besides scripture is necessary! How can you ignore that?

[Litany]

You don't get more liberal than the Albany Diocese!!

Milwaukee is still not far behind. We have gotten the same type of sermons the past few weeks, though a bit more toned down than this one sounded....but same gist.

[vrwc1]

The bible nowhere states that scripture is sufficient in order to be perfected. In fact, millions of Christians over the centuries observed the sabbath in huge church buildings that did not have loudpeakers. They may never have heard or read the bible (many were illiterate), but instead only heard preaching about what is in the Word. And I am sure many of them are saints in heaven - never having heard or read the actual word.

You're talking about faith and salvation now. Sounds like what you're saying is that those believers did hear the word of God - that is, they were preached to from the Bible.

Romans 10:17 Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The word tells us how one is saved:

Romans 10:9
If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you shall be saved.

That is all that is necessary for salvation - but that does not thorougly equip you for life. The full, complete, revealed word of God (the Bible) will do that. A Christian's life is much better if they are in the word daily, studying it, learning it and applying it. It's all that you need - nothing more!

[vrwc1]

They may never have heard or read the bible (many were illiterate), but instead only heard preaching about what is in the Word.

What the heck is a preacher preaching about if not what the Bible says? If that's not what he's preaching about, then he's not a Christian preacher, he's a motivational speaker, or a psychiatrist, or who knows what...

That's the problem with many churches today. The priests/pastors/preachers don't teach the Bible. Therefore their flock doesn't recognize the truth, and doesn't recognize deceipt and unscriptural teaching when someone tries to pass it off as doctrine.

[Notwithstanding]

He gives us the bible so that we can be pefect - that is ALL the passage says. Nothing more, nothing less.

Only by adding to the passage (something you would hold to be sinful) can you conclude that NOTHING ELSE could contribute to our perfection.

The passage does NOT say that other things cannot also contribute to our perfection - yet you hold that very position - a position which is not present in this passage.

[Notwithstanding]

So, in fact, you agree that oral preaching can assist one in perfection. I thought you did.

[Notwithstanding]

Nothing to disagree with here.

[vrwc1]

So, in fact, you agree that oral preaching can assist one in perfection. I thought you did.

Only if that oral preaching is in accrodance with the Bible, and not if it's extra-Biblical. That would be detrimental.

[vrwc1]

He gives us the bible so that we can be pefect - that is ALL the passage says. Nothing more, nothing less... The passage does NOT say that other things cannot also contribute to our perfection - yet you hold that very position - a position which is not present in this passage.

If you are "perfect", why do you need anything else? Perfection implies you can't get any better - you don't need to, you're already perfect! If I'm perfect, why do I need something else to make me "perfecter"? I don't! I'm already perfect through scripture!

[anncoulteriscool]

Well if he had supported the war this would have been a clear violation of church and state....

[Notwithstanding]

I understnad that you have always been told that this passage means something that the actual language of the passage cannot mean gramatically.

Its a matter of grammar. Because you are wedded to a certain theology you have invented a grammar that you apply only to this passage of scripture in order to force it to mean something not present in the actual words - and that would never ever apply to any other sentence.

Lets take two sentences:

1. "God gave us the bible so that we might be thoroughly perfect."
2. "Dad gave us the pistol so that we would be thoroughly safe from harm."

#1 represents the scripture in question and its actual grammar. #2 is a grammatical analogue.

Dad gave us the pistol so we would be safe from harm - but that does not imply that he gave us nothing else so that would be safe. It is silent as to anything else he may have given us to be safe in addition to giving us the pistol. But even here, it is clear that Dad gave us safety and shooting lessons at some point so that we would know how to use the pistol - otherwise it actually decreases our safety since we have no idea how to handle it or use it for its intended purpose.

This is all straightforward. The grammar clearly does not rule out dad having given us other things (like the shooting lessons, a radio or a knife) that would also contribute to our complete safety.

So too with the grammar in #1 - it is silent as to anything else God may have given us in addition to scripture to help us be totally perfect - it does not rule out that God may have provided other things that also help us to be totally perfect.

[Notwithstanding]

In fact, that passage does not even say that scripture is required for perfection - it simply tells us how generous God is and how wonderful scripture is - and what it can do for us.

[ventana]

Last Sunday I taught my Conformandi the Just War doctrine of the Catholic Church. We reviewed each category; I'll bet some of them this week are perceiving that this is a just war. V's wife.

[Notwithstanding]

Thanks to you for doing your important part.

Good works live!

[dsc]

"Looks pretty clear to me that we are to "stick to the Bible", in the words of the Bible itself"

I don't see that the citations you present mean that at all. Not even through the most tortured, tendentious reading possible can I wring from those words the proposition that God has only spoken through the Bible.

[RobbyS]

"Infallible" does not mean inerrant except in his jurisdiction over questions of faith and morals. If you read what the pope has said, you can see that this priest has crossed the line in calling the war "immoral." This is his private judgment and parishioners are within their rights to challenge him.