Philosophical Problems with the Mormon Concept of God

Christian Research Institute ^ | Francis J. Beckwith

[Illbay]

Well, there are twice as many "Christians" in the world as Muslims.

By your logic, we should be TWICE as afraid of "Christianity" as Islam, right?

[Elsie]

This you can tell, from the ranting, raving and foaming at the mouth of those like you who are confronted with the awful gulf of darkness represented by your pitiful "creed"-based religious institutions.

You've gone pretty far, when you no longer have your OWN words, and have to re-cycle some of MINE!!

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Try as they might, they have NO power to salvation. There is no authority, there is no priesthood, there is no Holy Ghost, there are no oracles, no revelation, no promise of eternal life.

Are you an idiot, or play one on FR???

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Luke 10:25-28
 25.  On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
 26.  "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"
 27.  He answered: "`Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind' ; and, `Love your neighbor as yourself.' "
 28.  "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."

 

 

Matthew 19:29
 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother  or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.

 

 

John 3:14-15
 14.  Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
 15.  that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

 

 

John 3:36
 36.  "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

 

 

John 4:13-14
 13.  Jesus answered, "Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again,
 14.  but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

 

 

John 5:24
 24.  "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

 

 

 

John 6:27-29
 27.  Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval."
 28.  Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
 29.  Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

 

John 6:40
 40.  For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

 

John 6:68
 68.  Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.

 

John 10:28
 28.  I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

 

John 12:50
 50.  I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say."

 

John 17:3
 3.  Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

 

 

 

Romans 6:23
 23.  For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

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Yes, their are promises for you as well..........

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John 5:39-40
 39.  You diligently study  the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me,
 40.  yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

(the OLD testement, BTW: something that could NOT have things TAKEN AWAY from it, to be 'restored' later.)

 

 

Acts 13:46
 46.  Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: "We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles.

[Illbay]

You have it exactly backwards, of course.

The WORKS that Paul speaks of are the rituals and observances of the Law of Moses. Paul was there to tell them that they were no longer of any value whatsoever.

Even Jews who purported to follow Christ insisted on their now-defunct rituals, and their "saving power."

You are also ignoring Galatians, Chapter 3, where Paul said: "O FOOLISH Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

"This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?" (Gal. 3:1-3)

The rest of this chapter is Paul's explanation of why the WORKS of the law would no longer save them.

James was addressing people like you, blinded by the odious "creeds" that are so far removed from the gospel of Jesus Christ that they are a mockery of it.

In effect, you have a ROLE to play in your own salvation. Saying that this means you can "save yourself" is as stupid as saying that you must have invented the earth's atmosphere because you breathe.

Salvation is NOT POSSIBLE without the atonement of Jesus Christ. But it is NOT POSSIBLE to have salvation unless one OBEYS CHRIST and keeps his commandments.

We will never be able to do so perfectly, but the Lord knows our minds, the intent of our hearts. This is how we will be judged, not on some arbitrary and capricious system whereby all of us are hated and depised of God, and a few of us are saved on a whim.

That's the most preposterous "system" I ever heard of.

I'd rather be a Buddhist than believe in such tripe.

[Illbay]

What does it mean, to "believe"?

[Elsie]

 

 

Gosh! I look JUST like DAD!	Ha!! And Grandpa!!	And GREAT-Grandpa!!!	And Great-GREAT-Grandpa!!!!

[Elsie]

It follows from what we have covered that in the LDS universe there are an infinite number of intelligent entities, such as gods (exalted humans) and preexistent intelligences. If this is denied, however, the LDS believer must somehow reconcile a finite number of these beings with an infinite past. For instance, if there is only a finite number of gods in a universe with an infinite past, then there was a time when no gods existed (which Joseph Smith denies). For a finite number of gods coming into being cannot be traced back infinitely. Moreover, if there is only a finite number of gods, then the continually repeated scenario of a god organizing intelligences so that they can begin their progression to godhood would have never begun. This is so because in Mormonism one needs a god in order for another to become a god, and no being has always been a god.

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How do I believe?

A WHOLE lot different than YOU do!

[Elsie]

What does it mean, to "believe"?

To do this........

KJV Acts 17:10-11
10. And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
11. These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

[restornu]

will cleave to the True and Righteous God, our Heavenly Father, who loves us and gives us every opportunity to come back to Him, to be JOINT-HEIRS with Jesus Christ just as the BIBLE says (the ENTIRE Bible is what I refer to; NOT "Bible-Prime", the only scripture allowed by these blind sectarians).

the ENTIRE Bible is what I refer to; NOT "Bible-Prime",

That is so true it like this diagram for the predestian in how to use scripture and another way for the Free Will group.

None of them take line upon line, precept upon precept that is taboo!

None of them are inspirit to seek the spiritual keys that the Lord has restorted to us!

When we talk to mainline it like two different languages. Years ago there was not that breach I know for in those days in the 50' & 60's there was a resemblance of a common groud in many area's.

That is why I enjoyed talking to dort. He was old enought when you talked to him he could witness to many of the words. It has been very subtle over the years but the true spirit of the Lord has been eradicated out of the mainline.

For years ago I was frustraded because of the "Wink n'Nod" congragations. Now it is NOT so much the "wink n' nod" as it is a different gospel being preached than the one in the Bible.

It like the street people years ago they had matters in front of a lady and would apologized if they used bad language in their presents. Today it like F U lady if you don't like it.

Well I have witness a changed in the mainline churches, in order to get younger generation to continue to attend they changed the hymns which BTW was the only part of the Church that truely carried the Holy Spirit and exchanged it for Rock.

Now many of those people are like in a stupor with their arms all in the air in a hypnotic wave! I cringed when ever I view this entrance state.

[Elsie]

Even Jews who purported to follow Christ insisted on their now-defunct rituals, and their "saving power."

Now its.........

Even LDS who TRUELY follow Christ insist on their funct TEMPLE rituals, and their "saving power"!

[Elsie]

When we talk to mainline it like two different languages.

Then you have to honestly ask, "Who changed the definitions of the words?"

[Ruy Dias de Bivar]

**The WORKS that Paul speaks of are the rituals and observances of the Law of Moses. Paul was there
to tell them that they were no longer of any value whatsoever.***

This is nonsense! In Romans Paul is addressing a GENTILE church. Look what he has to say:
What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh hath found?
For if Abraham were justified by WORKS he hath wherof to glory; but not before God.
What saith the scripture? ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD AND IT WAS COUNTED UNTO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace but of debt.
But to him that worketh NOT, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, HIS FAITH IS COUNTED FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

And just to clear up thes jew-gentile concept you have consider these verses:
ACTS 15:1-, and Galatians 2:9. His visit to Jerusalem: "And when JAMES, Cephas and John...precieved the grace that was given me they gave unto me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship that WE SHOULD GO TO THE HEATHEN(GENTILES) AND THEY UNTO THE CIRCUMCISION.

I speak to you Gentiles in as much as am the APOSTLE TO THE GENTILES, I magnify mine office: Romans 11: 13

[drstevej]

Outstanding.

[Elsie]

Today it like F U lady if you don't like it.

 

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I just wonder how this little 'act' was interpreted in Jesus' day?!

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KJV Matthew 10:14. 

 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

 

KJV Mark 6:11
  And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

 

KJV Luke 9:5
 And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them.

KJV Acts 13:51
 But they shook off the dust of their feet against them, and came unto Iconium.

[restornu]

The mainline moved farther from the Word of the Lord! So much so that many of that many of the churches are AWOL!

You Elsie will go to such link. Where in the Muslin religion are those words you have seize from the LDS to say the Islam also says that?

Elsie still sprading the Bull!

[Illbay]

It follows from what we have covered that in the LDS universe there are an infinite number of intelligent entities, such as gods (exalted humans) and preexistent intelligences. If this is denied, however, the LDS believer must somehow reconcile a finite number of these beings with an infinite past.

Okay, so what you're doing here is setting up the ol' straw man, right?

First: what you must (but won't) understand is how little the existence of other exalted entities has to do with our salvation. It is amusing to me that those aspects of "Mormon" theology that are the most vital--the Plan of Salvation, eternal marriage, eternal progression--are universally ignored by those like you, while those things that are most esoteric and least imperative for anyone to study (since there is so little information available anyway) are those that are trumpeted the most.

The fact is that, just as Paul said, there are "gods man and lords many," but for us only one God. Period. End of that discussion.

Second, you postulate an "either-or" regarding eternity and infinity. What a preposterous claim!

I reject BOTH of your postulates!

The fact is that infinity means just that: Unlimited. There is no limit to the possibilities or configurations. Our Father had a Father Himself; that much we know. Beyond that, who does know? This will be revealed at such time as it is actually important. Right now it is not.

Your preoccupation is like contemplating a newborn child, looking at your watch and wondering when the heck they're going to be ready for their first lessons in Tensor Calculus.

For instance, if there is only a finite number of gods in a universe with an infinite past, then there was a time when no gods existed (which Joseph Smith denies).

That's right, so you've answered your own question. And you're trying to frame infinite in terms of the finite. Your terms are irrelevant. Again, it's like trying to use the four basic arithmetic operations to describe Advanced Topology. You just look foolish even trying it.

For a finite number of gods coming into being cannot be traced back infinitely. Moreover, if there is only a finite number of gods, then the continually repeated scenario of a god organizing intelligences so that they can begin their progression to godhood would have never begun.

BlahBlahBlah...Your foolishness just becomes more and more evident.

This is so because in Mormonism one needs a god in order for another to become a god, and no being has always been a god.

This is all YOUR interpretation; we hold to no such. Infinity is infinity. Eternity is eternity. There is no time "where gods began to be." The notion of time is irrelevant. "Time only is measured to man."

It is odd that I continue to tell you these things, and you continue to make the same erroneous statements. Sometimes I think your name is ELIZA and that you're a computer-generated simulation with limited ability to respond to outside information. You're simply responding to internal programming.

How do I believe?

A WHOLE lot different than YOU do!

Evidently, and your belief is childish and immature. You have no understanding and, what's more, don't even understand that you don't understand. ELIZA.

[Illbay]

So, why did they search? This is "working" isn't it? Or is it okay to treat the Gospel like a hobby?

What is the purpose of gaining further light and knowledge? Once you've obtained your "salvation," you're done, right? In fact, life itself is really rather pointless, isn't it?

Unless you subscribe to the "Cosmic Pet" theory, and you are just performing for that capricious and arbitrary god you worship. As an intelligent being, doesn't that irk you somewhat?

[drstevej]

***Our Father had a Father Himself; that much we know.***

Don't forget Heavenly Mother and perhaps Heavenly Grandma???

[Illbay]

It is not RITUALS that are incorrect, or wrong (you DO believe in Baptism, for instance, don't you?) It is that the specific rituals surrounding the Law of Moses had any effect in "saving" them.

The temple is important, is it not? Christ Himself stated this, did He not?

You might consider gaining more knowledge. There are so many areas in which it is so obvious you have little understanding. Equating temple worship with the Law of Moses is one example.

Christ never said "I come to make sure you don't need this temple anymore."

[Illbay]

Then you have to honestly ask, "Who changed the definitions of the words?"

That's obvious. The moment that "creedists" began trying to redefine God to fit their own philosophies that were in turn derived from Platonic philosophy, the definitions of the words were changed.

Your own beliefs are closer to the paganistic philosophy of ancient Greece than true Christianity as taught by the only True Church of Jesus Christ, my own.

[Illbay]

This is nonsense! In Romans Paul is addressing a GENTILE church.

No, he was addressing the Galatian saints, most of whom had been Jews.