The Institutes Book 1, Chapter 6

The Institutes of the Christian Religion ^ | 1500's | John Calvin

[JesseShurun]

Yes, the patriarchs and the matriarchs, are and were, considered prophets

[Calvinist_Dark_Lord]

That's not what I'm addressing. What I am addressing is that Calvin said that God intended for the Creation to act as a clear revelation of Himself. Man's nature, according to Calvin, overrode what God intended. Everything I've ever heard from my FRCalvinist friends is that whatever God intends, happens. Except in this case.

i would agree that it overrode one aspect of that revelation, only to reveal another one, Justice. Basically the idea that the creation can "thwart" the Creator is absurd on it's face.

[Calvinist_Dark_Lord]

i envy you. i'd take Hebrew and Aramiac in a second if i could. Fortunately, my NT Greek is fluent.

[Penny1]

Nice to see you here too! I hope you still feel that way when we are done with our study! ;)

I actually tend to steer clear of a lot of the theological discussions because they so often tended towards bickering. But this one was too fascinating to pass up, and it seemed a more civilized discussion than some I've seen in the past. Perhaps having a Hobbit starting the thread had something to do with that, eh? ;)

[ksen]

Perhaps having a Hobbit starting the thread had something to do with that, eh? ;)

Heh! That may be it. ;^)

[ksen]

i envy you. i'd take Hebrew and Aramiac in a second if i could.

Are there any synagogues near you? We have a couple of Messianic synagogues in town and I know that at least one of them has Hebrew classes. I'm sure the regular synagogues have Hebrew classes as well.

[ksen]

If it was intended to bring all to a saving knowlege then it would do just that.

But Mom (don't you hate it when kids say that?), God intended, according to Calvin in Chapter 5, for the general revelation in Creation to bring all men to a clear understanding of Himself, but Man was able to supress the general revelation.

So if God intended all to come to a clear knowledge of Himself through the Creation, but it was supressed, why couldn't He also have intended the special revelation, Scriptures, to bring all Men to Him, but it too is supressed?

Why is Man able to supress God's intention in one case, but not able to in the other?

[ksen]

i would agree that it overrode one aspect of that revelation, only to reveal another one, Justice. Basically the idea that the creation can "thwart" the Creator is absurd on it's face.

Then you must have a beef with Calvin because he is positting what you are calling absurd.

[Corin Stormhands]

What I am addressing is that Calvin said that God intended for the Creation to act as a clear revelation of Himself. Man's nature, according to Calvin, overrode what God intended. Everything I've ever heard from my FRCalvinist friends is that whatever God intends, happens. Except in this case.

I'd like to "hear" some of the other Calvinists comment on this.

[CCWoody]

What would we do without Scottish Engineers? ~ CDL

I'll drink to that!

Woody.

[Corin Stormhands]

Shoulda pinged you to #49.

[CCWoody]

I'd like to "hear" some of the other Calvinists comment on this. ~ CS

ksen has mistated what Calvin said in Chapter 5. The Lord does have a clear revelation of Himself in the Creation. It accomplishes exactly what He intends, despite the man, whose nature is to suppress the knowledge of God. It leaves man without excuse.

Woody.

[Corin Stormhands]

Chapter V. Part 1. Section 4
Whether they will or not, they cannot but know that these are proofs of his Godhead, and yet they inwardly suppress them. They have no occasion to go farther than themselves, provided they do not, by appropriating as their own that which has been given them from heaven, put out the light intended to exhibit God clearly to their minds.

I think that's the part of Chapter V we're looking at. Right ksen?

The light was "intended to exhibit God" (we must assume intended by God) but man thwarts that. Am I reading you right ksen?

In other news, have we seen ANY reference to scripture yet? I've not read all six thoroughly, but still...

[ksen]

I think that's the part of Chapter V we're looking at. Right ksen?

The light was "intended to exhibit God" (we must assume intended by God) but man thwarts that. Am I reading you right ksen?

Yes, that is the part and you are reading me right.

In other news, have we seen ANY reference to scripture yet? I've not read all six thoroughly, but still...

Yeah, we had some Scripture and Augustine a chapter or two ago.

[Corin Stormhands]

Yeah, we had some Scripture and Augustine a chapter or two ago.

Very good then. I am still catching up from the weekend.

[CCWoody]

The light was "intended to exhibit God" (we must assume intended by God) but man thwarts that. Am I reading you right ksen? ~ Corin Stormhands

While it is appropriate to say that man "put out the light intended to exhibit God clearly to their minds," it is entirely inappropriate to say that man has somehow thwarted the will of God. The will of God is this:


... to manifest his perfections in the whole structure of the universe, and daily place himself in our view, that we cannot open our eyes without being compelled to behold him. P1 S1

This is why Paul tells us in Romans 1:20 that they are without excuse. You cannot say that Calvin is asserting that God's will is somehow thwarted. On the contrary, Calvin asserts that "we cannot open our eyes without being compelled to behold him." Calvin goes on to say in section 4 that "To hold that there are organs in the soul corresponding to each of its faculties, is so far from obscuring the glory of God, that it rather illustrates it."

It does seem rather clear to me that Calvin is asserting that the truth supressing wickedness in man's souls does not obscure the glory of God, but, rather, it illustrates it. You cannot assert that Calvin is saying that Man is thwarting God. Good grief, in the very act of the man himself supressing the light intended to exhibit God clearly to their minds, they are actually rendering themselves without excuse in their judgment. It is a free will thing you know. Because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind.

Now, that ought to give you some pause. The truth supressing wickedness in man's soul illustrates the glory of God. Hmmm! Now where do we see that?

Woody.

Pro 25:2 [It is] the glory of God to conceal a thing....

[RnMomof7]

But Mom (don't you hate it when kids say that?), God intended, according to Calvin in Chapter 5, for the general revelation in Creation to bring all men to a clear understanding of Himself, but Man was able to supress the general revelation.

And according to Romans everyman is without excuse...God has given a general revelation of himself to all mankind..so that He is seen..He has given a more specific revelation of Himself in His word..

So if God intended all to come to a clear knowledge of Himself through the Creation, but it was supressed, why couldn't He also have intended the special revelation, Scriptures, to bring all Men to Him, but it too is supressed?

Kevin it is HIS plan not ours..You are assuming His purpose was to bring all men to him as opposed to give all men a knowlege of Him..that is two different things..

Jhn 12:40He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them

Do you agree that having a general knowlege differs from a personal knowlege?

Kevin why do you believe God made man?

[RnMomof7]

Bump to 57 ..sorry

[Penny1]

This is an interesting statement. Does obedience precede faith, or does faith precede obedience? I always thought faith preceded obedience(i.e. Abraham).

My first thought in considering this question is that having faith in Christ is a command, is it not? So faith itself is obedience.

[Penny1]

Only God's own intentions can over-ride His intentions...the only limits placed upon God are the limits imposed by His own character. Perhaps we will learn in later chapters what God's intentions are in allowing man's deadness in sin to prevent him from perceiving God's sufficient revelation of Himself. I find it very difficult to delve into this aspect of God's will before we deal with man's Fall. The text that keeps replaying through my mind is Romans 9.

Romans 9:18--Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. 19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? 22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory--

In thise passage, we see that the hardening of man's heart against God, and his inability to come to a saving knowledge of Christ does not happen apart from God's own will and intention. But does this contradict what Calvin is saying here? I don't think so....because Calvin is talking strictly in terms of how God presents Himself to man--the objective reality of His revelation. If a blind man is standing in a room filled with blinding light, yet he cannot see that light, does that mean the light is not effective in displaing its luminosity? The problem is not therefore in the revelation, but rather in the completely inability to perceive that revelation. Which I'm quite sure Calvin will be getting into later on... ;)