Posted on 01/31/2003 1:18:27 PM PST by ksen
Huh? I think I am misunderstanding something here. Is Calvin saying that the Patriarchs had access to God's written word? I thought Moses wrote everything down?
If true religion is to beam upon us, our principle must be, that it is necessary to begin with heavenly teaching, and that it is impossible for any man to obtain even the minutest portion of right and sound doctrine without being a disciple of Scripture.
Amen! Preach it Brother John!
Hence, the first step in true knowledge is taken, when we reverently embrace the testimony which God has been pleased therein to give of himself. For not only does faith, full and perfect faith, but all correct knowledge of God, originate in obedience.
This is an interesting statement. Does obedience precede faith, or does faith precede obedience? I always thought faith preceded obedience(i.e. Abraham).
I think it is simultaneous. Faith is manifest through obedience. Obedience is evidence of faith. From the moment you believe; you obey. From the moment you obey; you believe.
If God intended to show Himself to all Mankind through His Creation, why would He not also intend to have His Word be effectual to all Mankind when the revelation of Himself in the Creation was found to be insufficient?
It seems to me that one is assuming that God intended to make His word be affectual to all Mankind. i do not believe that Calvin has yet gotten in to aspects of the Divine Will. At this point, he has only maintained that God has given a (partial) revelation of Himself in the creation, and for a fuller revelation, one must attend to His special revelation, namely the Scriptures.
Calvin is not making assumptions in order to build a theology, he is taking slower steps, and attempting to avoid as many a-priori assumptions as possible. We could for example, question why God would give "general revelation" at all when He knew from all eternity that it would not be sufficient, or even why He did not make it sufficient, thereby eliminating the need for "special revelation".
But Calvin said earlier that God had intended for the general revelation to be sufficient, but Man's nature overrode what God intended (Calvin's thoughts, not original with me).
From Chapter 5:
Whether they will or not, they cannot but know that these are proofs of his Godhead, and yet they inwardly suppress them. They have no occasion to go farther than themselves, provided they do not, by appropriating as their own that which has been given them from heaven, put out the light intended to exhibit God clearly to their minds.
You know why the Welsh language looks so complicated don't you?...so that ye can make the English choke to death on their bloody tongues when they try to pronounce the words! As for engineers, why settle for second best when there are plenty of Scots available?...
Welcome aboard lad!!!!!!!!!!
Here is a little testimony just for you:
Sufficient to His purposes. This does not imply a specifically salvific purpose. He merely is providing Mankind knowlege of His existence and some of His attributes, and a bit of what He requires...it is this partial knowlege that man suppresses...what do you suppose they would do with a Total (above and beyond the "sufficient salvific revelation" of Scripture), revelation?
1. THOSE who, rejecting Scripture, imagine that they have some peculiar way of penetrating to God, are to be deemed not so much under the influence of error as madness. For certain giddy men have lately appeared, who, while they make a great display of the superiority of the Spirit, reject all reading of the Scriptures themselves, and deride the simplicity of those who only delight in what they call the dead and deadly letter...Hence the office of the Spirit promised to us, is not to form new and unheard-of revelations, or to coin a new form of doctrine, by which we may be led away from the received doctrine of the gospel, but to seal on our minds the very doctrine which the gospel recommends.
Calvin's Institutes I.IX.1
"In the last 6 years, there has been much correction in my theology. It's hard to go from thinking you understand to realizing you don't know anything at all.
Sometimes I read the Word without the charasmatic spin and wonder how did I get so screwed up. Well, I got screwed up because my foundation and the teachers and pastors who taught me were screwed up. There was no malice in their teaching. They are just in error. So, I sharply curtailed my influences and trust only those who are firmly grounded in the Word. The difference... it is between light and darkness."
"But since no daily responses are given from heaven, and the Scriptures are the only records in which God has been pleased to consign his truth to perpetual remembrance, the full authority which they ought to possess with the faithful is not recognised, unless they are believed to have come from heaven, as directly as if God had been heard giving utterance to them...A most pernicious error has very generally prevailed--viz. that Scripture is of importance only in so far as conceded to it by the suffrage of the Church; as if the eternal and inviolable truth of God could depend on the will of men. With great insult to the Holy Spirit, it is asked, who can assure us that the Scriptures proceeded from God; who guarantee that they have come down safe and unimpaired to our times; who persuade us that this book is to be received with reverence, and that one expunged from the list, did not the Church regulate all these things with certainty?
Calvin's Institutes I.VII.1
"So, I have run back to the Word."
Their cavil about our cleaving to the dead letter carries with it the punishment which they deserve for despising Scripture. It is clear that Paul is there arguing against false apostles (2 Cor. 3:6), who, by recommending the law without Christ, deprived the people of the benefit of the New Covenant, by which the Lord engages that he will write his law on the hearts of believers, and engrave it on their inward parts. The letter therefore is dead, and the law of the Lord kills its readers when it is dissevered from the grace of Christ, and only sounds in the ear without touching the heart. But if it is effectually impressed on the heart by the Spirit; if it exhibits Christ, it is the word of life converting the soul, and making wise the simple. Nay, in the very same passage, the apostle calls his own preaching the ministration of the Spirit (2 Cor. 3:8), intimating that the Holy Spirit so cleaves to his own truth, as he has expressed it in Scripture, that he then only exerts and puts forth his strength when the word is received with due honour and respect.There is nothing repugnant here to what was lately said (chap. 7) that we have no great certainty of the word itself, until it be confirmed by the testimony of the Spirit. For the Lord has so knit together the certainty of his word and his Spirit, that our minds are duly imbued with reverence for the word when the Spirit shining upon it enables us there to behold the face of God; and, on the other hand, we embrace the Spirit with no danger of delusion when we recognise him in his image, that is, in his word. Thus, indeed, it is. God did not produce his word before men for the sake of sudden display, intending to abolish it the moment the Spirit should arrive; but he employed the same Spirit, by whose agency he had administered the word, to complete his work by the efficacious confirmation of the word. In this way Christ explained to the two disciples (Luke 24:27), not that they were to reject the Scriptures and trust to their own wisdom, but that they were to understand the Scriptures. In like manner, when Paul says to the Thessalonians, "Quench not the Spirit," he does not carry them aloft to empty speculation apart from the word; he immediately adds, "Despise not prophesying," (1 Thess. 5:19, 20). By this, doubtless, he intimates that the light of the Spirit is quenched the moment prophesying fall into contempt. How is this answered by those swelling enthusiasts, in whose idea the only true illumination consists, in carelessly laying aside, and bidding adieu to the Word of God, while, with no less confidence than folly, they fasten upon any dreaming notion which may have casually sprung up in their minds? Surely a very different sobriety becomes the children of God. As they feel that without the Spirit of God they are utterly devoid of the light of truth, so they are not ignorant that the word is the instrument by which the illumination of the Spirit is dispensed. They know of no other Spirit than the one who dwelt and spake in the apostles--the Spirit by whose oracles they are daily invited to the hearing of the word.
Calvin's Institutes I.IX.3
Jean
That's not what I'm addressing. What I am addressing is that Calvin said that God intended for the Creation to act as a clear revelation of Himself. Man's nature, according to Calvin, overrode what God intended. Everything I've ever heard from my FRCalvinist friends is that whatever God intends, happens. Except in this case.
But it is true IF you take the word of God as infallible..
If it was intended to bring all to a saving knowlege then it would do just that
Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it.
Which is true Ksen?
I ~think~ he meant the personal revelation (spoken) word
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