Could I ask a serious question of some Mormons? (Please?)

today | me

[Grig]

"You want to use James 1:5 as evidence it's perfectly fine to ask God for wisdom. Under what circumstances? What I mean is, is it reasonable to ask God for wisdom in how to trick your neighbors wife into sleeping with you? Of course not. "

Of course not, there is no such wisdom as 'wisdom in how to trick your neighbors wife into sleeping with you'. I point you again to this:

James says that God wants us to become 'perfect and entire, wanting nothing' (v4)
James says if we 'lack wisdom', we can obtain it from God. (v5)
Therefore we can get from God ANY wisdom we need to become 'perfect and entire, wanting nothing'.

So, basicly any wisdom that we need to become 'perfect and entire, wanting nothing' we can ask for in faith and get. That covers a lot of ground, not just trials.

I am responsible to God to provide for my family, so I can seek from God wisdom about managing my career, I am a father and have a responsibility to raise my children correctly, I can seek wisdom from God to guide my in fulfilling my duties as a father, and in how to help my kids with the challenges they face. I need to follow Christ to become 'perfect and entire, wanting nothing', so I am justified going to God in faith and seeking from Him wisdom to know what church is true, what some scripture means etc. I know these things are true because I've done them, I know by my own experience that God does give wisdom in such cases. It would be easier for you to convince me the world is flat than that God wouldn't help someone out in such a way.

"Does the Bible offer any conditions or limitations on how God grants wisdom? The answer is yes. With King Solomon he requested wisdom for selfless reasons."

First, that's not 'how' that's 'why'. How God can impart that wisdom is up to him. The still small voice of the Spirit, dreams, visions, messengers (mortal or not), promptings or whatever other way He deems best.

Second, 2 Chronicles 1:11 says he wanted it 'for thyself, that thou mayest judge my people, over whom I have made thee king:' Not entirely un-selfish, Solomon certainly stood to benefit from it. He valued wisdom over riches and other such things and asked for what he valued most and what he though would benifit him most. Nor does the verses rule out asking for wisdom for other reasons, again you read in a restriction that is not there in the text. If I say milk is good on cereal, that doesn't mean you can't use it make cheese too.

[scripter]

I base that on other scriptures He would reveal to me in His Word as I sought wisdom for a particular situation.

What verses and context? That's the key.

Maybe I'm "assuming" here that most of what I would ask God for would be "wisdom" to understand something as opposed to actually asking Him for something.

Could be. We need to be careful to understand the Scriptures as they were originally written, not as we (and I mean everybody) want to understand them.

If you had an excellent job offer that would require you to pack up and move to a totally different location, would you ask God for wisdom to know if it was something you should consider? Or would you ask Him to let you get the job? If you were asking for the former, on what scriptural basis would you ask?

I would ask God if taking the job would further glorify Him, as supported from Matthew 7:7 and Luke 11:11.

Back later.

[HarryDunne]

"Look to the roots to know the fruit of the tree... " So how do I apply that to the case of Christ being born a decendant of polygamous David?

RnMomof7: Did you answer Grig's question? I don't see that you have. Maybe it's in another post? If so, which one? I would like to read your rebuttal.

[Grig]

Thank you computerjunkie, it's nice to know somebody understands what I'm trying to say.

scripter, there is no shame in learning something new.

[computerjunkie]

No problem, Grig. As you know, we disagree on just about everything having to do with our respective beliefs, so it's nice to occasionally find a tidbit where we can agree!!

[RnMomof7]

No I did not see the question

Neh 9:16   But they and our fathers dealt proudly, and hardened their necks, and hearkened not to thy commandments,

     Mat 19:8   He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

     Act 7:51   Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers [did], so [do] ye.

God was long suffering with OT Israel and allowed many things that were contrayr to His will

Jesus came from the line of David/Solomon..

David repented of His polygamy before Solomon was born

II Samuel 12 are: "And Nathan said unto David, The Eternal also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die." The son to be born of this adultery was to die. But once David had repented God then blessed him with another son..

After that David was away from Jerusalem. But, returning there were ten concubines (his former harem). Here is what David did with them: "And David came to his house at Jerusalem; and the king took the ten women his concubines, WHOM HE HAD LEFT TO KEEP THE HOUSE, and put them in ward, and fed them, but WENT NOT IN UNTO THEM. So they were shut up unto the day of their death, living in widowhood" (II Sam. 20:3).

There was polygamy in ancient Israel. But it was SIN! God CONDEMNED it -- He never condoned or sanctioned it. They reaped what they sowed.

[computerjunkie]

"I would ask God if taking the job would further glorify Him, as supported from Matthew 7:7 and Luke 11:11.

And I would ask God for wisdom to know if the job would further glorify Him, based on James 1:5. I know He will answer based on Matthew 7:7 and Luke 11:11.

Ultimately, God answers prayer for His glory and our good...in spite of ourselves!

[HarryDunne]

Did God condemn Jacob(Israel)'s polygamy? I don't recall ever seeing that.

[RnMomof7]

After Jacob's conversion in Genesis 32:24-30. He then put idolatry out of his household (Gen. 35:2-4). God appeared to him, changed his name to ISRAEL ("Overcomer", or "Prevailer with God"), and re-confirmed the PROMISES. Then God took Rachel, his second wife (Gen. 35:19), leaving only his first and true wife, Leah.

So, following his conversion, Jacob had but his one original wife. Jacob had repented. He lived no more in polygamy after his conversion.

[HarryDunne]

Jacob had repented. He lived no more in polygamy after his conversion.

Ok, I'm looking at the book of Genesis right now. I'm looking at the scriptures you referenced. Where does it say that Jacob/Israel repented of polygamy and that God condemned it?

[RnMomof7]

He repents after he wresled with God...that was a repentance of all sin..now you show me where he "replaced" Rachel OK?

Leah was forced on Jacob by fraud. According to God's marriage laws, Jacob could have rejected her -- put her away as soon as he discovered the deception. In that event, he would never have been truly married to Leah -- God would not have bound them as one flesh. But when Jacob accepted her as his wife, she became his ONLY true wife, in God's sight, as long as they both lived.

But God FORBADE polygamy for the kings of Israel. Here is God's LAW respecting polygamy by Israel's kings: "When thou art come unto the land which the Eternal thy God giveth thee, and shalt possess it, and shalt dwell therein, and shalt say, Iwill set a king over me, like as all the nations that are about me .... Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away" (Deut. 17). It is spoken of as "THIS LAW" in verses 18 and 19.

  Deu 17:17   Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away: neither shall he greatly multiply to himself silver and gold.   

  Deu 17:18   And it shall be, when he sitteth upon the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write him a copy of this law in a book out of [that which is] before the priests the Levites: Israel's first king, Saul, had plural wives. But in this he disobeyed God and followed the custom of the kings of the worldly nations around Israel. It was SIN. It was not approved by God.

[HarryDunne]

I don't want an explanation or an interpretation, I want the source. Please give me a scripture reference.

One more time: Ok, I'm looking at the book of Genesis right now. I'm looking at the scriptures you referenced. Where does it say that Jacob/Israel repented of polygamy and that God condemned it?

[scripter]

And I would ask God for wisdom to know if the job would further glorify Him, based on James 1:5.

James was writing to first century Christians about the extreme persecution and trials they were experiencing, such as life and death situations. James said to ask for wisdom to endure such difficult trials.

Maybe I don't understand what you're saying. Are you saying you would rather use James 1:5 out of this context to ask God for help in taking a job instead of verses such as Matt 7:7 and Luke 11:11, in the context of glorifying God?

Earlier you said:

I base that on other scriptures He would reveal to me in His Word as I sought wisdom for a particular situation.

That's really not an answer - I was asking for specific verses - why do you believe what you believe about this?

Back later.

[scripter]

scripter, there is no shame in learning something new.

What? We agree on this? :-)

I'm beginning to think we don't really agree on James 1:5, despite you saying we do.

[Grig]

Ditto.

[scripter]

You seem to want to marginalize Solomon's request:

2 Chronicles 1:11 says he wanted it 'for thyself, that thou mayest judge my people, over whom I have made thee king:' Not entirely un-selfish, Solomon certainly stood to benefit from it.

You dismissed the context here:

The LORD (Jehovah) highly exalted Solomon in the sight of all Israel and gave him royal splendor like no king over Israel ever had before. Solomon established himself firmly over his kingdom, for the LORD (Jehovah) his God (Elohim) made him exceedingly great.

God (Elohim) appeared to Solomon and said: "Ask for whatever you want me to give you." Solomon mentions the great kindness God (Elohim) gave to his father, David, and made him king in his fathers place. Solomon requests God's (Elohim) promise to his father be confirmed, for Solomon was king over a great number of people.

Solomon could have requested anything, yet he asked:

Give me wisdom and knowledge, that I may lead this people, for who is able to govern this great people of yours?

God (Elohim) replied to Solomon:

Since this is your heart's desire and you have not asked for wealth, riches or honor, nor for the death of your enemies, and since you have not asked for a long life but for wisdom and knowledge to govern my people over whom I have made you king, therefore wisdom and knowledge will be given you. And I will also give you wealth, riches and honor, such as no king who was before you ever had and none after you will have.

God knew Solomon's heart and grants him more than he requested.

He valued wisdom over riches and other such things and asked for what he valued most and what he though would benifit him most. Nor does the verses rule out asking for wisdom for other reasons, again you read in a restriction that is not there in the text.

That makes absolutely no sense from what I've said as I've mentioned no restrictions here. God would have granted Solomon anything yet he chose wisdom. The idea here is this is a great verse to quote when requesting wisdom, not James 1:5. And what was Solomon's desire? To glorify God.

[Grig]

"David repented of His polygamy before Solomon was born... "And Nathan said unto David, The Eternal also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die." "

Nathan did NOT condemn David for polygamy, David's sin was having sex with another man's wife, and arranging for the murder of that man.

"After that David was away from Jerusalem. But, returning there were ten concubines (his former harem). Here is what David did with them:"

It was more than 40 years after David sinned with Bathseba (not with any of his wives) when David shut them up, and his reasons were different than you describe.

2Sam 16
21 And Ahithophel said unto Absalom, Go in unto thy father’s concubines, WHICH HE HATH LEFT TO KEEP THE HOUSE; and all Israel shall hear that thou art abhorred of thy father: then shall the hands of all that are with thee be strong.

22 So they spread Absalom a tent upon the top of the house; and Absalom went in unto his father’s concubines in the sight of all Israel.

According to the law of Moses, a married woman who is defiled can no longer enjoy a married state. (Lev 18) David could have divorced them or punished them, but that wouldn't have been a good idea politicaly, so he choose this options instead. Now I know you tend to quickly dismiss things from an LDS source, so here is a non-LDS source that says the same thing: http://www.godrules.net/library/clarke/clarke2sam20.htm

It was not because he was renouncing polygamy as part of his repentance, and if I recall he had more wives and concubines than just those 10 who he continued with after this time. The 10 were put away because they were defiled by David's son.

"There was polygamy in ancient Israel. But it was SIN!"

Go David is going around sinning with 10+ women and God says nothing but that one more and he draws the line?

There are clear examples of God activly approving polygamy and I've already posted them (2Sam 12:8). What was a sin was to sleep with another man's wife, arrange the murder of an innocent person. There was no sin UNTILL that was done.

[scripter]

Whoops. Should say:

That makes absolutely no sense from what I've said as I've mentioned no restrictions but selfless reasons.

[Grig]

"Then God took Rachel, his second wife (Gen. 35:19), leaving only his first and true wife, Leah. "

So everytime a wife dies it's because the husband sinned? Punishment is the same thing as repentance?

"So, following his conversion"

Conversion?!? Look at Gen 28, Jacob was getting direct revelation from God, Gen 32 he was meeting with angels. I kinda think that shows he already was converted.

"Jacob had but his one original wife. He lived no more in polygamy after his conversion."

Benjamin was born some time after Gen 32, so Jacob did continue polygamy after his 'conversion', also, he had at least one concubine (Gen 35:22) still after she was dead.

[Grig]

"Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away"

And I see that as meaning the same thing as "He shall not take it upon himself to take multiple wives." That doesn't rule out HAVING multiple wives, just how they are obtained.