A critique of the evangelical doctrine of solo scriptura

The Highway ^ | Keith Mathison

[Uri’el-2012]

Are your Bishops Married with children ??

The passage doesn't say that Bishops must be married. The point is that if a Bishop is married he cannot have been divorced and his family must be exemplary.

Otherwise, Paul would be contradicting himself when he states elsewhere that it is better for men to remain unmarried:


I Corinthians 7
"I wish that all men were as I am. But each man has his own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that."


If Paul was prescribing marriage for bishops he would also be contradicting Jesus:

Matthew 19:12
For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage[ 19:12 Or have made themselves eunuchs] because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."

201 posted on 01/08/2003 7:56 AM MST by Aquinasfan

Was the Christ, Jesus a Roman Catholic?

Was the Christ, Jesus a Catholic?

Was the Christ, Jesus a catholic?

Was the Christ, Jesus a Jew?

Was the Christ, Jesus a Jewish Rabbi?

Were any men in Judaism required to remain unmarried ?

Were any men in Judaism required to become a Eunuch ?

19:12 ...Or have made themselves eunuchs] because of the kingdom of heaven.

Is Y'shua HaMashiach encouraging a man to make himself a eunuch ? Either figuratively or literally ?

Surely Rabbi Y'shua would have known Deuteronomy :

Deuteronomy 23:1 No-one who has been emasculated by crushing or cutting
may enter the assembly of the LORD.

Why? Because many Pagan religions castrated their priests.

Are your Bishops Married with children ??

Matthew 23:39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say,
Barukh haba b'Shem Adonai
`Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'" [Psalm 118:26]
Y'shua haMashiach

chuck <truth@YeshuaHaMashiach>

[gdebrae]

<> OK, I'll save ya some time.

I am well aware of all these texts. But that still does not address the fact that such persons do not have a spiritual authority that elevates them above other believers. The pastor or priest cannot forgive my sins. Only Christ can forgive. The pastor of priest can refer to scripture to provide assurance of that fact, but they in themselves have no spiritual authority to forgive anybody. Neither does the pope or any cardinal.

The pomp, procession, wealth and power of the roman church are all contrary to NT teaching. That one person is set over the church in a way that no one else is, is contrary to the fact that the church has only one head and that is Christ.

[Uri’el-2012]

MarMema

<> Prove it.

Put up or shut up,sister.<>

191 posted on 01/08/2003 7:53 AM EST by Catholicguy [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 165 | View Replies | Report Abuse ]

<> You have had nearly four hours...I am still waiting :)<>


220 posted on 01/08/2003 10:12 AM MST by Catholicguy

1 Timothy 1:5 The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure
heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.
1 Timothy 1:6 Some have wandered away from these and turned to meaningless talk.
1 Timothy 1:7 They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know
what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.
1 Timothy 1:8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly.

chuck <truth@YeshuaHaMashiach>

[MarMema]

Probably if you want to learn what the church believes, it would be best to read official church sites, rather than personal ones. here is a good place to read about our faith. That said you won't find a doctrine of salvation in our church as we do not have one.

Salvation is left up to each individual person and is between them and God. As is the growth of each person in Christ. The church offers guidance and assistance but each person is expected to come to know God. We are, above all, experiental Christians.

Click on my FR page and choose the link about The Eastern Christian Mind to learn more about how eastern Christianity differs from the west.

[Uri’el-2012]

<> G - - d L - rd.Y-u think y-u are G-d?

G--d luck explaining that -ne

<> Buh, bye. Y-u have acheived(sic) permanent ign-resville<>

217 posted on 01/08/2003 9:40 AM MST by Catholicguy

I remember the Bullies in the play ground,

Whenever they lost the argument they would call you names.

But I still love you. The L-rd commands that I must love you.

Matthew 5:43 “You have heard that it was said, `Love your neighbour [Lev. 19:18] and hate your enemy.’
Matthew 5:44 But I tell you: Love your enemies [Some late manuscripts
enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who
hate you] and pray for those who persecute you,
Matthew 5:45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his
sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

chuck <truth@YeshuaHaMashiach>

[MarMema]

Yours are some truly beautiful posts. Thank you for them.

[Catholicguy]

21 He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you.

22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost.

23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them: and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

<> I can't figure out which parts of the Bible you do believe in, and why>

I guess it must be YOPIOS. Have a nice day:)

[Catholicguy]

21 He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you.

22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost.

23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them: and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

<> I can't figure out which parts of the Bible you do believe in, and why

I guess it must be YOPIOS. Have a nice day:)<>

[TotusTuus]

Loved in the Eastern Orthodox church, pretty much ignored in the RC church, I believe.

Your belief is wrong here.

...he is not a likely candidate for the RC church to hold on high.

I hate these threads and find them worthless because of stupid accusations such as this. Why does the Catholic Church celebrate his feast day then? Please, everybody, give information about your own Churches and beliefs for enlightened discussion, but don't falsely accuse others of holding or not holding beliefs, or in this case, not giving due respect for a venerable Church Father. This is not true!

In our liturgy we say of the Trinity, "One in essence and undivided".

This is part of the Catholic Liturgy as well. FYI.

[MarMema]

Please forgive me for my error.
Is there a copy of your liturgy on a website somewhere that I can read?

[TotusTuus]

Is there a copy of your liturgy on a website somewhere that I can read?

I'll look for one, I'm breaking to go to Mass now. However, the Liturgy I'm referring to is the Liturgies of St. John Chrysostom and St. Basil the Great, which are of the Eastern Rites, and essentially the same as that used by many Eastern Orthodox sharing the same history.

[Aquinasfan]

What is your interpretation of these Bible passages? A direct answer would be appreciated.

I Corinthians 7

"I wish that all men were as I am. But each man has his own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that."

Matthew 19:12

For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage[ 19:12 Or have made themselves eunuchs] because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."

My interpretation and the Church's interpretation is that men to whom the gift of lifetime chastity is given should accept it.

[RichardMoore]

All roads lead to Rome!

[Aquinasfan]

John 10:16

I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

John 17:11

I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name; the name you gave me;so that they may be one as we are one.

John 21

15When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon son of John, do you truly love me more than these?" "Yes, Lord," he said, "you know that I love you." Jesus said, "Feed my lambs." 16Again Jesus said, "Simon son of John, do you truly love me?" He answered, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." Jesus said, "Take care of my sheep." 17The third time he said to him, "Simon son of John, do you love me?" Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, "Do you love me?" He said, "Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you." 18 Jesus said, "Feed my sheep. I tell you the truth, when you were younger you dressed yourself and went where you wanted; but when you are old you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go."

Isaiah 22

22 I will place on his shoulder the key to the house of David; what he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open.

Matthew 16

18And I tell you that you are Peter,[3] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[4] will not overcome it.[5]19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[1] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[2] loosed in heaven."

John 6

67"You do not want to leave too, do you?" Jesus asked the Twelve. 68Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God."

Matthew 14

27But Jesus immediately said to them: "Take courage! It is I. Don't be afraid." 28"Lord, if it's you," Peter replied, "tell me to come to you on the water." 29"Come," he said. 30Then Peter got down out of the boat, walked on the water and came toward Jesus. But when he saw the wind, he was afraid and, beginning to sink, cried out, "Lord, save me!"

Acts 1

15In those days Peter stood up among the believers[3] (a group numbering about a hundred and twenty) 16and said, "Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through the mouth of David concerning Judas, who served as guide for those who arrested Jesus-- 17he was one of our number and shared in this ministry."

Acts 2

14Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: "Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say.

[Uri’el-2012]

What is your interpretation of these Bible passages? A direct answer would be appreciated.

I Corinthians 7
"I wish that all men were as I am. But each man has his own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that."

Matthew 19:12

For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage[ 19:12 Or have made themselves eunuchs] because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."

My interpretation and the Church's interpretation is that men to whom the gift of lifetime chastity is given should accept it.

232 posted on 01/08/2003 11:38 AM MST by Aquinasfan

I would have thought that if you had answered my questions you would have been led to question the Roman church's exegesis.

Again answer these questions thoughtfully and reflect on your answers.

Was the Christ, Jesus a Roman Catholic?????

Was the Christ, Jesus a Catholic?????

Was the Christ, Jesus a catholic?????

Was the Christ, Jesus a Jew?????

Was the Christ, Jesus a Jewish Rabbi?????

Did He preach from the Law (Torah) ?????

Were any men in Judaism required to remain unmarried ?????

Were any men in Judaism required to become a Eunuch ?????


AF>19:12 ...Or have made themselves eunuchs] because of the kingdom of heaven.


Is Y'shua HaMashiach encouraging a man to make himself a eunuch ?????
Either figuratively or literally ?????

Surely Rabbi Y'shua would have known Deuteronomy :

Deuteronomy 23:1 No-one who has been emasculated by crushing or cutting
may enter the assembly of the LORD.

Why? Because many Pagan religions castrated their priests.

Are your Bishops Married with children ?????

I think my answers to your questions are clear from the Holy Word of G-d.

or

is my logic faulty ?

My interpretation and the Church's interpretation is that men to whom the gift of lifetime chastity is given should accept it.

I think not ;only if you follow Eisegesis.

Jesus the Christ when He modified anything from the Old Covenant, He was very clear by stating the Old followed by the New.

I don't see that here or anywhere else in the Holy Word of G-d on this topic; do you ?

I do not find the "gift of lifetime chastity" listed anywhere in the Holy Word of G-d.

I have searched all of the Gifts we have received and the "gift of lifetime chastity" does not seem to among them.

Acts 17:11 Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the
Thessalonians, for they received the message with great
eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if
what Paul said was true.

chuck <truth@YeshuaHaMashiach>

[gdebrae]

21 He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them: and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

This means of course that sins were forgiven in the name of Peter, or of Paul, or of James, or of John. If Peter forgives my sins then he is my righteousness. Or if Paul forgives my sins, then he is my righteousness. Or if catholicguy forgives my sins then you are my righteousness.

Interesting concept.

[lockeliberty]

Thanks for the scripture.

Question: If I were to choose to worship traditionalism what objective criteria could you give me to choose Rome over the Orthodox version since both claim Apostolic succession?

[Catholicguy]

<> Prove to me your are an inheritor of an Apostlolic Office. Who was the Catholic Bishop who Ordained you? Prove your line of Apostloic sucession<>

[Aquinasfan]

Question: If I were to choose to worship traditionalism what objective criteria could you give me to choose Rome over the Orthodox version since both claim Apostolic succession?

I think the most obvious evidence is the papacy and the unbroken papal succession from Peter through the current pope. If Christ really established the office of a supreme bishop then only the Catholic Church can be Christ's Church.

The papacy unifies Christendom. This is no small point since Jesus states plainly in Scripture his desire that his flock be one and united.

The Orthodox churches as far as I know regard all patriarchs as equal. Therefore the churches have become somewhat autonomous, most importantly with respect to the matter of settling doctrinal matters. This is important since Jesus tells us to take our disputes "to the church." Theoretically, a Church Council could settle doctrinal disputes, but no single bishop can call together a Council and I am unaware of any recent Councils in the Orthodox churches. The prospect of a Council in the Orthodox churches in the near future also seems to be pretty slim.

While the Catholic Church recognizes the validity of the patriarchs of the Orthodox churches and the validity of their sacraments, we regard the Orthodox churches as schismatic inasmuch as they do not recognize papal authority. Otherwise, there is substantial doctrinal agreement between both the Catholic and Orthodox churches.

[TotusTuus]

Boy, I found a bunch of them, mostly from Orthodox Churches. Here's one from the Catholics. Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. They're all pretty much the same though sometimes minor translation difference occur. Sometimes "essence" is translated as "substance". Also, the decree of the Metropolitan Bishop for the Byzantine (Slavonic) Rite in America has the "and the Son" (filioque controversy) taken out of the Creed, which it has always been optional. Also, some retain "Theotokos" which others translate as "Mother of our God" or "Mother of God".