Posted on 12/29/2002 9:23:52 PM PST by PFKEY
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favour'd rage;
Then lend the eye a terrible aspect;
Follow your spirit, and upon this charge
Cry "God for Harry, England, and Saint George!"
Scots, wha hae wi' Wallace bled,
Scots, wham Bruce has aften led,
Welcome to your gory bed,
Or to Victorie!
Now's the day, and now's the hour;
See the front o' battle lour;
See approach proud Edward's power-
Chains and Slaverie!
Wha will be a traitor knave?
Wha can fill a coward's grave?
Wha sae base as be a Slave?
Let him turn and flee!
Wha, for Scotland's King and Law,
Freedom's sword will strongly draw,
Free-man stand, or Free-man fa',
Let him on wi' me!
By Oppression's woes and pains!
By your Sons in servile chains!
We will drain our dearest veins,
But they shall be free!
Lay the proud Usurpers low!
Tyrants fall in every foe!
Liberty's in every blow!
Let us Do or Die!
"Using the standard of absolute, unrelenting foreknowledge you come to the conclusion that God would know everything. Everything excludes nothing."
Precisely. It is a fact that an event can only be known if the fact that it happens is certain. In human terms, it would require a determined outcome. This would not imply the dependence of one revealed attribute of God (omniscience) upon another (omnipotence), as there is a contrast between an infinite God and finite man.
"Why would you look for a different standard standard?"
It is not a question of looking for a different standard. Theology proper is the study of the attributes and nature of God. Will is an attribute of God, as revealed in the scriptures. Both the Knowing and Willing of God are revealed in the scriptures. If a being is capable of acting in a manner outside the knowlege of God, then God is not soverign. If a being is capable of acting against the will of God, then God is not soverign.
i hope that is helpful to you.
Ok, time to call it a night!
I think I have heard that every time I have embarked on this discussion with a Calvinist. There is a subtle but important distinction between being drawn to God and being drawn by God.
Do you believe that God can passively will anything? That is, do you believe that He can command people to repent and they won't repent? (Obviously you do since that was your citation of a universal salvific position.) Or perhaps you believe that He is commanding them to repent and at the same time, not?
God can will something passively. That is, He will be disappointed if all don't repent, don't you think?
Imagine:
1. We are before time has begun.
2. God decides to create humans.
3. His foreknowledge tells him that some day WriteOn will accept Him.
4. God begins time and creation.
5. There is zero chance at that point that WriteOn will NOT become a Christian.
1. We are before time has begun.
2. God decides to create humans.
3. He PLANS that WriteOn will unavoidly accept Him.
4. God begins time and creation.
5. There is zero chance at that point that WriteOn will NOT become a Christian.
The end result is the same. Whether known to become a Christian, or planned to become a Christian, you are now a Christian and can only praise God for "setting it in motion so that it came about."
It is a rich creation, vibrant and alive. He knows the fruit He will produce and prunes and grafts to get it, in the context of the vine's growth.
No simple doctrinal position can ever suffice, though many simple doctrines describe some of His work...
On this we are in very solid agreement.
His ways are beyond our fathoming except He reveal them to us.
Can you explain what that difference is and point to some examples? BTW, i do not neccessarily disagree with this point, i am just wondering what you see as the distinction.
"Or perhaps you believe that He is commanding them to repent and at the same time, not?"
Who said that God commanding people to repent is an extension of His will? Is it not a natural consequence of His justice? If God has not commanded humans to follow His ordinance(s), then they are not without excuse, are they? The General Revelation passages make it clear that God has informed man of His existence, Psalm 19:1-4, and His ordinance, Romans 1:18-21,32. Since this is General revelation through the media of the Creation, all of mankind are without excuse. The commandment of God to men is an attribute of His justice.
At the same time, the commandment of God for mankind to repent is an extension of His patience, as Isaih says:
"All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people". Isaiah 65:2
My contention is simply that one should not neccessarily insert the word "will" where they see the word "command"
As per the will of God, are you aware of how many Greek words are translated "will" in the English? There are three different verbs, each with a different semantic range and a certain amount of overlap, and the meaning changes depending upon which tense is used. There are also five different nouns, and two different adjectives. As with the verbs, these also have a different range of meaning. i have not even yet discussed the cognates, "Willing", "Would", or "Desire".
"He will be disappointed if all don't repent, don't you think?"
No, He always knew, Those who do not repent will be disappointed, (he said, with a touch of understatement!).
It is possible if they have been revealed. When dealing with God, one deals with the revelation of scripture. Scripture is a sufficient revelation to mankind, it is not an exhasutive revelation. i am not comfortable of ascribing anthropopathisms to God, unless there is a clear liscense from the scripture. Remember, we were created in the image of God, and that image has been totally depraved by sin, though not utterly depraved.
It says that since the grace of God is greater then Adams sin, then all are made righteous.
Adding that with John 16:9, then we see that rejection of God is the only basis for condemnation.
Since a child cannot reject Christ not having the reasoning ability to do so (Jonah 4), they all automatically fall under the grace of the last Adam.
That is what the Scripture teach.
But you really do not care what the Scriptures teach, you are concerned about what Calvinism teaches despite what the Scriptures teach.
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.
Drawn by:
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
This is largely the difference between His being passive and active.
And please don't tell me "all doesn't mean all." :-)
As to the difference between commandment and will. I have to chuckle. God's commands are efficacious when He actively commands and proscriptive when He passively wills. Your digression on Greek is interesting but beside the point I was making.
God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
That is NOT what I asked..I asked does any man DESERVE to be saved..your position?
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