Do babies go to Heaven?

[JesseShurun]

Backatcha bayouboy.

[RnMomof7]

“In that day,” God says, “I’ll put My Spirit within you.”...and he does and we are converted...

[RnMomof7]

If you did not believe that infants were born sinful infant baptism would be unnecessary...

[Quester]

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

expanded ...

John 3:17 For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on Him is not condemned, but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For everyone that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest that they are wrought in God.

[Jael]

Sure they did. Arminianism was introduced into the Protestant Church by Jesuit Romanist design.

Probably so. The Prots never really lost all their ties to their Mother Rome. In fact, they still keep some, even today. Like infant baptism.

But I am not a prot. My beliefs were never part of Rome. They never came from Luther or Calvin.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

Are the good estranged from the womb?

• And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
• As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

The good are not estranged from the womb, sink. But humans who are "good" (that is, Righteous in God's Eyes) at conception? Aside from the Roman "immaculate conception" dogma re: Mary, that's a numerical subset of exactly one (1) human being -- Jesus of Nazareth.

All other humans since Adam are conceived in Original Sin.

You are free to pull obscure Old Testament quotations to try to prove that unbaptized infants are in hell.

Sink... Didn't you take SEVEN years of Comparative Theology, or some such?

Are you ignorant of the doctrines of Calvinism, or just wilfully misrepresenting them (personal foul on your part, Commandment IX)?

Since Calvinists do not believe in the Roman dogma of "baptismal regeneration", we do not believe that those whom God has ordained to die in Infancy are denied from being made recipients of Irresistible Sovereign Grace. We believe that God saves whomsoever He chooses to save.

John Calvin, the sixteenth-century Reformer for whom Calvinism is named, asserted, "I do not doubt that the infants whom the Lord gathers together from this life are regenerated by a secret operation of the Holy Ghost." And "he speaks of the exemption of infants from the grace of salvation 'as an idea not free from execrable blasphemy'" (cited by Augustus Strong in Systematic Theology). He furthermore declared that "to say that the countless mortals taken from life while yet infants are precipitated from their mothers' arms into eternal death is a blasphemy to be universally detested" (quoted in Presbyterian and Reformed Review, Oct. 1890: pp.634-51). ~~ CALVINISM: ITS DOCTRINE OF INFANT SALVATION GOOD NEWS FROM THE REDEEMER JULY 5, 1997 RADIO MESSAGE #172)

Do remember your seven years of comparative theology -- we Calvinists believe in Biblical Sovereign Grace, not Romanist "baptismal-effected" Grace.

That is the god you believe in, who would bring a creature to life to condemn it to hell, through no fault of its own. It is nonsensical, on its face, and contrary to the Mercy and Justice of God, but, hey, it's what I expect from all of you.

I see... Straw People!!

They don't even know that they're Straw Men!!

Calvinists do not believe that "god... would bring a creature to life to condemn it to hell, through no fault of its own".

ELECTION CONFIRMED BY THE CALLING OF GOD. THE REPROBATE BRING UPON THEMSELVES THE RIGHTEOUS DESTRUCTION TO WHICH THEY ARE DOOMED. -- John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book III ch. 24 (Chapter Title)

Calvinism teaches God's Judgment falls upon Men specifically on account of their Sins.

Wanna try again, in the Bonus Round?

I don't expect kid-gloves in a theological discussion. But after SEVEN YEARS of Comparative Theology, I do expect at least a faint modicum of learning.

I'm not going to accuse you of having SLEPT through your Comparative Theology classes, Sink, so don't act like it.

Have a Happy New Year, in fear and trembling.

Thanks!! God bless you and yours.

Maranatha, OP

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

But I am not a prot. My beliefs were never part of Rome. They never came from Luther or Calvin. 145 posted on 12/31/2002 4:19 PM PST by Jael

Hm. What is your denomination? (and see #130)

[Jael]

Acts 8:29  Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.

30  And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?

31  And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

32  The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:

33  In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.

34  And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?

35  Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

36  And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

37  And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

38  And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

39  And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

[sinkspur]

We believe that God saves whomsoever He chooses to save.

And I believe that God gives every man His saving Grace, to accept or reject. He doesn't choose to save some, and choose not to save others.

He chooses to offer His salvation to every man, individually, and man must make a choice. That includes infants.

Just exactly how that is accomplished is unknown to us.

We didn't study Calvinism for a single hour in seminary.

[ventana]

Take another look at his post. The lack of charity is scary. V's wife.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

And I believe that God gives every man His saving Grace, to accept or reject. He doesn't choose to save some, and choose not to save others. He chooses to offer His salvation to every man, individually, and man must make a choice. That includes infants. Just exactly how that is accomplished is unknown to us.

FWIW, modern Roman dogma has Augustine rolling over in his grave.

ONLY THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN PREDESTINED TO BELIEVE, WILL BELIEVE -- Therefore He chose them out of the world while He was wearing flesh, but as those who were already chosen in Himself before the foundation of the world. This is the changeless truth concerning predestination and grace. For what is it that the apostle says, "As He hath chosen us in Himself before the foundation of the world"? And assuredly, if this were said because God foreknew that they would believe, not because He Himself would make them believers, the Son is speaking against such a foreknowledge as that when He says, "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you;" when God should rather have foreknown this very thing, that they themselves would have chosen Him, so that they might deserve to be chosen by Him. Therefore they were elected before the foundation of the world with that predestination in which God foreknew what He Himself would do; but they were elected out of the world with that calling whereby God fulfilled that which He predestinated. For whom He predestinated, them He also called, with that calling, to wit, which is according to the purpose. Not others, therefore, but those whom He predestinated, them He also called; nor other, but those whom He so called, them He also justified; nor others, but those whom He predestinated, called, and justified, them He also glorified; assuredly to that end which has no end. Therefore God elected believers; but He chose them that they might be so, not because they were already so. -- The blessed Saint Augustine

But at least the Good Old Doctor can take comfort in the fact that Orthodox Protestants maintain Augustine's expressly-Biblical soteriology.

After all -- the Question is NOT whether or not God gives man a Choice; but rather, what Choice will unregenerate Man make?

IN HIS NATURAL STATE, MAN POSSESSES FREE WILL, BUT IT AVAILS HIM NOTHING -- Since man was corrupted by the Fall, he sins voluntarily. There is no external force or Coercion: he is motivated by his own passions. But such is the depravity of his nature, he can only move in the direction of evil. -- The blessed Saint Augustine.

We didn't study Calvinism for a single hour in seminary.

Passing strange.

A strange "seminary" it is, which does not spend even a single hour upon the study of the Gospel.

[RnMomof7]

Every Calvinist on this form agrees with every scripture that speaks of the necessity to believe..the question is WHO will choose to REPENT and believe

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

To: rwfromkansas Take another look at his post. The lack of charity is scary. V's wife. 150 posted on 12/31/2002 4:43 PM PST by ventana

Does the following exhibit a "scary lack of charity", or is it an expression of Truth?

The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Is it True, or is it False?

[RnMomof7]

Do you believe that meeting was an "accident" And not part of GODS plan?

[RnMomof7]

Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

[rwfromkansas]

We can't make that choice.

[restornu]

The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

So all babies born in sin to wed/unwed mothers that died from a drug adiction, aids, and other complications go to hell?

1- Sex outside of marriage is a sin!

2- Jesus died for all so all re saved by grace!

3- Sins of Adam/Eve were forgiven to those born after the resurrection of Jesus Christ, saved by grace!

[rwfromkansas]

I guess Augustine "misinterpreted" the "you have not chosen me" verse to include all Christians......just as us Calvinists do. Some people like to say that only applies to the disciples.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

So all babies born in sin to wed/unwed mothers that died from a drug adiction, aids, and other complications go to hell?

No.

Now, what was it you were saying?

[sinkspur]

There is much about Augustinianism (i.e, reincarnation), that is problematic.

A strange "seminary" it is, which does not spend even a single hour upon the study of the Gospel.

We spent three years studying Scripture.

It had a decidedly non-Calvinist bent, apparently.