Posted on 12/22/2002 1:05:12 PM PST by Scupoli
...why didn't a Church emerge from the NT that is still with us today that holds your same views?
There are plenty of Churches who hold the views I stated.
Simply put:
God has provided us His plan. (The Bible).
God expects us to make the effort to understand His Word.
God expects us to join with like-minded believers in the furtherence of this process and to spread His plan.
Joining a group of believers assures us of nothing.
None of these groups (in that day: the Church at Ephesus, the Church at Galatia... in our day: First Baptists of Whoville, First United Methodists of Townville...) had a Monopoly on understanding God's Truth.
If the Churches were infallible, why did Paul write such scathing letters to them correcting their errors (i.e. all the Epistles).
Touche.
Did I say that?
Do you claim that there are few or no people who believe the passages of the Bible that I quoted?
Did I say that?
Catholics make up about half of the "Christian" world. How could half possible make up the "few" that find the right path and the other half (non-Catholics) make up "many there be which go in" the gate to destruction.
Did I say that?
There are plenty of Churches who hold the views I stated.
That's not what I asked. My question was "why didn't a Church emerge from the NT that is still with us today that holds your same views?". So which church(s) emerged from the NT that are still with us today that hold your same views?
Simply put:
1. Christ established a Church. (Matt 16:18)
2. Christ promised the gates of hell will not prevail against his Church. (Matt 16:18)
3. Christ named Peter as the first visible head of the Church and gave him the keys with the power to bind and loose. (Matt 16:19)
4. Christ said the Church is the final authority. (Matt 18:17-18)
5. The Church is the pillar and foundation if Truth (1 Tim 3:15)
This comment reminds me of the quote by Cardinal Newman, “To be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant".
If your going to deal smack, at least spell it right, if you are capable. You know we have (in Iowa) the best schools in America that money can buy. BTW I feel the same about "Dung heap" as you.
Merry Christmas
Dude, you are from freaking Oklahoma. Okies shouldn't be dealin' smack about other states. :-) I've been there a few times and it isn't exactly mine or most other peoples idea of paradise. At least we have good land here, you can grow anything, well about 7 months out of the year you can anyway.
In 2 Maccabees 4:34 Onias the High Priest is murdered. Later, in 15:11-16, we are told that he appeared in a vision to Judas Maccabeus along with the prophet Jeremiah, who had died centuries earlier. In verse 14 we learn that the saints in heaven can and do pray for those of us still on earth. "And Onias spoke, saying, 'This is a man who loves the brethren and prays much for the people and the holy city, Jeremiah the prophet of God.'"
The Saints remember us and we remember them. Those who are alive in Christ do not die but live forever.
Merry Christmas. May the peace of our Lord and his Holy Family be with you now and always.
Mary, Mary, Not Quite Contrary by Robert Sungenis
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In my travels as a Catholic apologist, I happened upon a Protestant who was considering joining the Catholic Church, but who found the doctrines of Mary to be a huge stumbling block. She gave me the usual objections: Catholics worship Mary; the Bible doesn't tell us to pray to Mary; Mary had other children besides Jesus; Mary was a sinner like everyone else; and so on. She was particularly disturbed at the numerous Marian apparitions which have surfaced in the last few years and wondered if these were not just manifestations of the devil.
As any Catholic does when a Protestant confronts him with questions about Mary, he takes a deep breath, listens sympathetically and then tries to explain as best he can one of the hardest teachings of the Catholic Church for non-Catholics to understand and accept. Indeed, doctrines of Mary are usually the last obstacle overcome by Protestants who join the Catholic Church. Why?
There are two main reasons: (1) There just isn't that much information in the Bible about Mary. For those who are used to obtaining their convictions from Scripture alone, the Catholic claims for Mary seem unsubstantiated, if not heretical. (2) To Protestants, some of the recent Catholic pronouncements about Mary appear to make her a savior right alongside of Jesus -- for instance, one pope declared that "all graces come through Mary." In addition, various Latin American and Eastern cultures seem to treat Mary like a god rather than a human being. Protestants don't have an aversion to Mary, per se, but they feel an obligation to stop what they see as blasphemy against God.
Now, in the following, I am not going to answer all of the objections Protestants have against Mary. There are plenty of books and articles which address those objections. Father Peter Stravinskas himself has written an excellent work in this regard ("Mary and the Fundamentalist Challenge," Our Sunday Visitor, 12.95).
Kathleen: Robert, I'm really considering becoming a Catholic, but Mary is by far the most difficult area for me as an evangelical, Sola Scriptura person. I have a Catholic bookstore near me, and I picked up a couple of books on Marian devotion so that I can try to understand.
Robert: I admire your effort to grapple with these issues. I know it's hard. I used to be a Protestant myself. Mary gave me the hardest time before I converted to Catholicism.
Kathleen: Thanks. I started to read a book called "The History and Devotion of the Rosary." It contains a chapter on Fatima, which I understand the Church has approved. Here are some quotes from Mary given at Fatima that really give me a problem!
Robert: OK, let's hear them.
Kathleen: All right. Here's the first one: "Jesus wants to establish devotion to my Immaculate Heart in the world. I will never leave you: my Immaculate Heart will be your refuge and the way that will lead you to God."
Robert: What's the problem with this?
Kathleen: Well I think of the words of Jesus Who tells us that He is our refuge, our fortress, that we are to worship only God -- that He is a jealous God -- and that if someone jumps through all the right hoops of saying the Rosary on certain days, etc., that then she will give them grace for salvation.
Robert: But, Kathleen, listen to what Mary is really saying. Mary speaks of "devotion," not worship [which should always be distinguished from veneration], so you can't claim there is any competition with God. Mary's heart is "immaculate" because, according to Church teaching, she was sinless. Even your Protestant forefathers, Martin Luther and John Calvin, believed that much about Mary. There is nothing wrong with taking "refuge" in Mary, since we also take refuge in the Church, in prayer, in repentance, etc. When we take such refuge, we understand that it is not due to power inherent in the intermediary, but in the power God gives to the intermediary. Mary is not upstaging Jesus. She specifically says that Jesus wants her to establish devotion.
Kathleen: Well, how about when she says, "I want to tell you that they must build a chapel here in my honor."
Robert: Same difference, Kathleen. We are not giving her worship, only honor. As we honor our father and mother according to the Fourth Commandment, we honor Mary. Don't you think she ought to receive some honor for bringing Christ into the world? And what occurs in a chapel? Nothing but prayer, sacrifice and worship to God through the mass and the sacraments.
Kathleen: I don't have a problem with that. But then she says, "I promise to assist at the hour of death with the grace necessary for salvation for those who, on the first Saturday of five consecutive months, go to confession and receive Holy Communion, recite the Rosary and keep me company for quarter of an hour while meditating on the mysteries of the Rosary with the intention of making reparation to me."
Robert: No problem here, Kathleen. Mary is giving her "assistance," not a divine fiat. She "assists" by being an intercessor. According to Church teaching, the grace that she gives is that which comes from God, not from Mary herself. A priest can also "assist" and "give grace" at the hour of death under the power of the sacrament of the Anointing of the Sick or Penance. Since he is especially ordained of God for such purposes, he can assist in ways that other people cannot. Similarly, because Mary is specially endowed by God as an intercessor, she can assist in ways not common to other people or even priests. As for "making reparation," Mary does not mean that we are to perform a restitution to her, anymore than the priest who gives absolution and requires penance in the confessional is directing the reparation toward himself.
Kathleen: For many years, I've gone directly to Jesus, and He has so greatly blessed me with His sweet presence and many miracles -- like being instantly healed of breast cancer in 1991. There is no suggestion in Scripture that we must go through Mary to get to Him -- it's just not true, and I feel that, in the Church, Marian devotion/worship/veneration has moved into the area of blasphemy.
Robert: Kathleen, by the logic of your own argument I can show where you are wrong.
Kathleen: OK, I'm open to see it. I hope you can, because I really do want to become a Catholic.
Robert: You prayed to Jesus, and He cured you of breast cancer in 1991. But why did you have to pray to Jesus?
Kathleen: What do you mean?
Robert: Didn't Jesus know that you had breast cancer and needed to be healed? He's God, and He knows everything, but He still required you to pray, didn't He?
Kathleen: Yes, I can't argue with that.
Robert: That tells us something very important about God. Often He won't do something because no one prays to Him. St. James teaches us the same thing in those Scriptures you rely on so heavily. In James 4:2 it says, "You do not have because you do not ask God." In 1:5-7 he says, "If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God,...and it will be given to him. But when he asks he must believe and not doubt...That man should not think he will receive anything from the Lord."
Kathleen: So what your saying is that without prayer God won't give us what we desire?
Robert: Well, of course, God can do what ever He wants, but He does make a point to tell us that we will not receive from Him unless we pray. God has set up prayer as the vehicle to do His bidding, and He will not change it.
Kathleen: OK, but how does this answer my questions about Mary?
Robert: I'm not finished yet. Let me take you to some other Scriptures in that Protestant Bible of yours. In 1 Timothy 2:1-4, St. Paul says, "I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone -- for kings and all those in authority...This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." Here, St. Paul says that we must make prayers and intercessions to God for everyone. Why? Because God wants all men to be saved; and prayer is the means through which God will grant them salvation. We can conclude that if we don't pray for them, it will affect whether or not God saves them. Do you see how important intercessory prayer is, Kathleen?
Kathleen: Yes, I knew it was important, but I never considered that a lack of prayer could result in someone's not being saved. But it does make sense. Why would God command us to pray if our prayer really didn't affect the outcome?
Robert: Right! That's why so much emphasis is put on prayer and intercession in Scripture. Essentially, if we neglect to pray for another person, God may not act on his behalf. First, we saw that God requires you to pray to Him directly; now we see that God requires intercessory prayer. According to catholic teaching, even souls in purgatory can languish because no one prays for them.
Think about it this way, Kathleen. God could have easily created the world without a need for prayer or intercession. He certainly knows everyone's need before it occurs, but God delights in "Christian solidarity." He could just snap His fingers and have everything done. However, in His infinite wisdom, He chose not to design things that way, and He will not change it. If God did change it, then He would be dishonoring Himself. In effect, in order to maintain His own honor and veracity, God requires prayer and intercession in order to act on our behalf.
Kathleen: Wow! I knew we had responsibility, but I just didn't realize it was that serious!
Robert: That's right. Now you're catching on. But an equally important part of prayer and intercession is that we use the vehicles God has ordained to bring prayer and intercession to Him.
Kathleen: What do you mean?
Robert: First, in James 5:16-18, Scripture tells us that God will listen to the prayers of a righteous man. He uses the example of the righteous prophet Elijah, who prayed to God that it would not rain. In answer, God withheld the rain for three-and -a-half years.
Kathleen: You mean God will answer the prayers of some people more than the prayers of others?
Robert: Yes. God listens to people who live righteous lives, and He is moved to answer their prayers. Proverbs 15:8 says, "The prayer of the righteous is His delight," and in 15:29, "He hears the prayer of the righteous." The more righteously we live, the more God is pleased with us and the more He will answer our prayers. Conversely, if we sin, then God may not hear our prayers. In Isaiah 1:15, God says, "When you spread out your hands in prayer I will hide my eyes from you; even if you offer prayers I will not listen." In 1 Peter 3:7, husbands are warned that if they mistreat their wives, God will not listen to their prayers.
Kathleen: I guess I have to adjust my Protestant thinking a little.
Robert: Yes, it's quite a paradigm shift. You have to stop thinking that everyone's righteousness is the same, a belief that stems from your Protestant doctrine of "imputed" righteousness. You need to start thinking that there are people who are more righteous than you because they actually live that way -- under the power of God's grace, of course.
Kathleen: So where does this lead us?
Robert: Well, if I know my saintly intercessors are more righteous than I by the mere fact that they have already made it to heaven, and if I know that god listens to the prayers of righteous people, then it is only logical that God will answer the prayers of my heavenly intercessors, perhaps more often than He will answer me.
Kathleen: I do follow your logic. This is certainly interesting. But can we get back to Mary? I really want to know how she fits into all this.
Robert: No problem. Mary is one of those people who is more righteous than you or I. In fact, Mary is sinless. It is no wonder that God encourages us to seek her intercession when we desire something from Him. God is greatly affected by the prayers of holy people. The best example I can think of from Scripture is in Exodus 32:9-14. God wanted to destroy all of Israel after they worshipped the golden calf. Moses, whom God considered a righteous man, prayed that God would relent in His anger. Verse 14 records one of the most amazing responses in Scripture: "And God changed His mind and did not bring on His people the disaster He had threatened. " Later, in Exodus 33:11-19, God says that He listened to Moses' prayer because Moses was Gods friend; Moses pleased God; and God knew Moses by name. In modern terms, God answered Moses' prayer because God liked Moses very much.
Kathleen: That's amazing. I really see the effect prayer can have on God. But can you give me more help? It's really a big step for someone like me to pray to someone like Mary.
Robert: Let me put it this way. The proud person claims that he doesn't need any of the intermediaries or vehicles God has established. He thinks that he is righteous enough to go directly to God without any support from others, without any sacraments, without the Church and her Communion of Saints. He thinks he is honoring God by bypassing intercessors, but in reality he is dishonoring God and puffing himself up. It's one thing to pray to God by yourself, but when you insist that you don't need intercessors to pray for you, then you don't really understand prayer at all, or what truly pleases God.
Kathleen: I never looked at it that way before. I guess my Protestant "rugged individualism" made me think that it had to be "just me and Jesus." I can see that due to our Protestant belief in the "imputed covering of Jesus" we think everyone is on the same level with God, but I'm beginning to see that that is very wrong. I have to admit that the Israelites in Exodus 32 were certainly not on the same level with God as Moses was. I just didn't believe there could be anyone more righteous than myself on whom to depend for answers to prayer. Wow! How self centered I've been!
Robert: Bingo! Now, if the Church, acting infallibly on God's behalf, declares Mary to be one of the chief intercessors before God, then it would behoove us to use her as a conduit, or God may not answer our prayers. Now don't misunderstand me. It's not that God doesn't have the power to do things without Mary. Remember, God could snap His fingers and do anything. It's because God has already set up Mary as our heavenly intercessor, and He cannot go back on His word. In effect, rather than blaspheming God when you pray to Mary, you are giving God the deepest honor possible, because you are recognizing and utilizing the vehicles of grace that He has established.
Kathleen: I never thought that my solitary appeals to God could be a sign of pride. That's amazing!
Robert: Yes, as St. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 3:18, if anyone considers himself to be wise, let him become a fool that he may be wise. Intercessors, such as Mary, may seem silly to Protestant sensibilities, but I guarantee that she is the key to prayer and power with God. Although He is powerful enough to do anything He desires, nevertheless, in His infinite wisdom, He has chosen to accomplish His works through select channels and intermediaries, and He will not change it. Anyone who wants to continue to have God's ear must recognize this principle.
Kathleen: Wow. Robert, thanks a lot. You've really opened up my mind. I guess I'll have to go home and start praying about all this.
Robert: When you do, offer prayers to Mary. She'll call on God's grace for you so that you'll understand a lot faster and a lot better.
Copyright © 1999 Our Sunday Visitor Publishing, Inc. All rights reserved. http://www.osv.com
Mr. Robert Sungenis is author of "Not by Faith Alone: A Biblical Study of the Catholic Doctrine of Justification" (Queenship Publishing Co. 1997).
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- For Further Study
Books - Introduction to Mary by Mark Miravalle and Mary and the Fundamentalist Challenge by Fr. Peter Stravinskas and Hail Holy Queen by Scott Hahn and Mary and the Fathers of the Church by Fr. Luigi Gambero.
Video - Mary the Mother of God with Stephen Ray
Anyone who is a born again believer in Jesus Christ alone is a Saint. But someone you never met could never remember you.
Mark 3:35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Either God lied, or your claim that Mary is sinless is a lie. You choose.
Colossians 3:8 ¶But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
Titus 1:1 ¶Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of **the truth** which is after godliness;
2 In hope of eternal life, **which God, that cannot lie,** promised before the world began;
3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;
4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.
The Immaculate Conception
by Sebastian R. Fama
In 1854 Pope Pius IX affirmed the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. He wrote, in part, "We declare, pronounce and define, that the doctrine which holds that the most blessed Virgin Mary, at the first instant of her conception, was preserved immune from all stain of sin, by a singular grace and privilege of the omnipotent God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ…" (Ineffabilis Deus).
The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is consistent with the teachings of Scripture. In fact it is foretold in Genesis 3:15 where God says to Satan, "I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed. He shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heal." The seed of the woman is Jesus; so the woman is Mary. The seed of Satan is sin. If the enmity between Mary and Satan were not the same as the enmity between Jesus and sin they would not have been included in the same sentence. The word enmity appears only once and it is applied to both situations. If there is a complete enmity between Christ and sin there must be a complete enmity between Mary and Satan. If Mary were to sin she would be cooperating to some degree with Satan and there would be no complete enmity.
Some claim that the woman is Eve or the nation of Israel. Eve does not qualify because she was a sinner. Likewise it couldn't be the nation of Israel, as the Israelites were at times famous for their rebellion against God.
The New Testament is consistent with the Old. Luke 1:28 records the angel Gabriel addressing Mary: "Hail full of grace." Note that Gabriel does not address Mary by name but by the title "Full of Grace." The Greek word kekaritomene (kecaritwmenh), which is translated as "Full of Grace," means, among other things, much graced or imbued with special honor. Could this refer to the special honor of bearing the Savior? It cannot, because the word kekaritomene is a perfect participle, which simply means that it refers to something that was completed in the past. At this point Mary had not even been asked, nor had she as yet accepted, the role of bearing the Savior.
It is by the grace of God that we avoid sin. To be full of grace would be a prerequisite to being sinless. However, being sinless does not make Mary equal to God. Remember that Adam and Eve were created sinless and that did not make them equal to God.
The early Church viewed Mary as the second Eve. Both were born without sin, the first would fail; the second would triumph. The early Church fathers called Mary "all holy," "all pure," "most innocent," "a miracle of grace," "purer than the angels," and "altogether without sin." These quotes all come from the first three centuries of Church history. So the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception could not be a later invention as some allege.
Does this mean that Mary didn't need a savior? Not at all, we can be preserved from sin or we can be saved from sin. Mary was preserved from sin. On a smaller scale we are sometimes preserved from sin. By the grace of God I have never killed anyone. I was preserved from a particular sin. There are murderers who have turned to Christ and no longer have the desire to kill. They were saved from a particular sin.
But what about Romans 3:23: "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God?" Do you suppose that the word "all" includes severely retarded adults or babies who die at birth? Of course not. Paul is not speaking in the absolute terms that some assume he is. The meaning of this verse lies in its context. Who is Paul talking to? What is the issue being discussed? In the first three chapters of Romans, Paul is telling the Jewish Christians that they have no advantage over the Gentile Christians. In effect he is saying it doesn't make a difference, you are all in the same boat. Jews and Gentiles have all sinned and fallen short. Mary's sin offering in Luke 2:22 does not present a problem either, as it refers to ritual uncleanness and was purely external.
Martin Luther, the father of the Protestant Reformation and the chief proponent of Sola Scriptura (Scripture alone), wrote the following: "Many have been disposed to assert that Mary was also born in original sin, though all with one mouth affirm that she was sanctified in the maternal womb and conceived without concupiscence."
"For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings" (2 Timothy 4:3).
I quote God, who says that all have sinned, and you quote Matin Luther?
God says that ALL HAVE SINNED. If you say ALL HAVE NOT SINNED, you are saying God lied.
God says that He can not lie. I am going to stick with God on this.
Luther should have gone by the Bible, not the vain traditions of men. Besides, I am not a Prostestant. I never would be. They teach the damnable heresy of Infant Baptism.
God has never taught that Mary was sinless, not could she of been.
All glory and honor is given to Jesus Christ the Son. Not Mary.
Mary isn't a Saviour. She NEEDED one herself. She said so.
This Pope, who sinned by facilitating the kidnapping of a 6 year old boy is someone you trust over God Himself?
This Pope also hated God's choosen people the Jews and called them Dogs.
Genesis 12:2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
That Pope is cursed by God Himself. And you are going to trust someone who teaches you that Mary is sinless, and you are going to say to imply that God is a liar when he says ALL HAVE sinned based on THAT POPE? Please explain to me what would make you chose the words of a fallen sinful man over God himself?
2 Peter 2:1 ¶But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
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