An Open Letter to the Church Renouncing My Service on I.C.E.L.

Communicantes (Newsletter of the Society of St. Pius X in Canada) ^ | October 2002 | Rev. Fr. Stephen Somerville

[Zviadist]

If the Catholic Church was wrong all that time--what could possibly make it right now?

This needs said again, only bigger:

If the Catholic Church was wrong all that time--what could possibly make it right now?

[ultima ratio]

No good using humor to deflect the point. The truth is, Bud McDuell answered your provocations in kind and he is now banned. You yourself called him--and me--agents of Satan. But someone--I strongly suspect it was you--went bawling to whomever to have at him. You are really not a person of much character.

[Zviadist]

Just in this thread, ultima has called Catholicguy: "KING of annoyers"

Oh boo hoo hoo, that's much worse than being called "son of satan."

[Zviadist]

The truth is, Bud McDuell answered your provocations in kind and he is now banned.

So the mis-named "catholicguy" went bawling and weeping to the powers that be to get a poster banned who cleaned his clock in argument? Why does that not surprise me? What a lowlife thing to do.

[ultima ratio]

Exactly.

[Zviadist]

Great post. It is interesting that only when the Protestant consultants signed on to the final version of the New Mass was it deemed acceptable

And have you ever read Pope Paul's address to those assembled -- including the protestant ministers -- upon completion of their work in Vatican II? Remember, the protestants actively participated in drawing up the documents of the Council:

A few excerpts from a speech by Pope Paul 6 on Friday, April 10, 1970 A.D. given in his Audience to the members of the Synod Vatican 2 Concilium, with comments in parentheses:

"Venerable Brothers ("Among the many members of the Hierarchy present at the audience were Cardinals: Lercaro, Gracias. Giobbe, Confalonieri, Rugambwa, Felici, Gray, Enrique y Tarancon, and Willebrands.") and dear sons, (the context clearly indicates this includes the Six Protestant "Observers" as proven from the first above photo which shows: 1. Dr. George; 2. Canon Jasper; 3. Dr. Shephard; 4. Dr. Konneth; 5. Dr. Smith; and, 6. Brother Max Thurian. ) We are glad to give you a heartfelt greeting, and to speak to you ... the work accomplished by you in these years, We are impelled to offer you a full measure of thanks for so great and so many labours. For you were prompt and diligent, as well as expert, in dealing with a matter that was complicated and very difficult--and without expecting any reward, but seeking only to be of service to the Church This work of yours (this you includes the Six Protestants) was indeed arduous; documents had to be drawn up by which that Constitution of the Council [Vatican 2] would be gradually put into effect...

In the light of these difficulties, it is remarkable that so many things have already been achieved and completed

To mention only the main points, let Us note [1] the many Instructions and other documents edited, and
[2] books of a subsidiary nature written by some of your
[3] the new [Novus] Ordo Missae;
[4] the variations introduced into the Liturgy of Holy Week;
[5] the Rites of Baptism for Infants,
[6] of Diaconate,
[7] Priesthood,
[8] Episcopate, and
[9] Matrimony;
[10] the order of readings for Mass;
[11] Rites of Exequies, and
[12[ for Religious Profession;
[13] the Roman Calendar.
[14] Soon also, after much hard work, the Roman Missal will be published to be followed by (among other things) [15] the Roman Breviary,
[16] the Rites for Confirmation and
[17] for the Baptism of adults,
[18] the revised Roman Martyrology,
[19] the second "Liber Pontificalis", and
[20] the Roman book of Ceremonies (Caeremoniale).

All this work of yours (this yours includes the Six Protestants) incorporates the principles approved by the Council's [Vatican 2's] Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy. For indeed it was from this, which we may call the "Magna Charta" of liturgical renewal...

You have made a special effort to see that ... "lex orandi" might correspond more aptly with the "lex credendi"... Thus it happily comes about that... Since this Consilium of yours comes to its end, after its excellent activity...

In this wish, and with a specially warm love, we impart to each and all of you the Apostolic Blessing."

(From: L'OSSERVATORE ROMANO, Weekly Edition in English, Third Year N. 17 [108], Thursday, APRIL 23, 1970, pages # 1 and 2.)

[sitetest]

Dear smevin,

"I asked you a question which you apparently couldn't answer or simply chose not to answer."

I answered your question:

"'So a non-Catholic can validly confer the Sacraments of the Catholic Church?'

"What are Orthodox priests and bishops doing?"

You just don't like how I answered it.

But because he is a better person than I am, patent answered your questions more fully in post #651.

At the same time, you've either feigned ignorance, or are genuinely ignorant of basic facts about the validity of the sacraments.

If you are truly ignorant, and want more in-depth answers than have been afforded to you, do a little research for yourself. The material is readily available on the web.

If you are feigning ignorance, then go play your games elsewhere.


sitetest

[Zviadist]

Oh no...more "reform". What a way to receive the living Body of Christ... Do these kids look sufficiently reverant? More like "hey, move over, I wanna see what the dude's doing!"

[Catholicguy]

<> Wow, Protestants in the Vatican. I wonder what sort of skullduggery the Actor-Pope (remember, the real Pope had been kidnapped and an actor substituted) was cooking up?

AS to the protestant observers. Wel, that IS might devious. Imagine...alllowing Protestants to "observe" an Ecumenical Council (Psst, Trent invited them to DEBATE)

FYI, Max Thurian died a CATHOLIC PRIEST. I guess he was involved in "protestantising" the Mass so he would feel comfortable in converting to Catholicism<>

[Zviadist]

Have you seen this thread yet?

[Catholicguy]

You yourself called him--and me--agents of Satan

<> I did not. I called you both SOS COWboys- Sons of Satan, Church of Winona boys<>

[Zviadist]

FYI, Max Thurian died a CATHOLIC PRIEST. I guess he was involved in "protestantising" the Mass so he would feel comfortable in converting to Catholicism<>

Why not convert...he helped protestantize the Mass. There was nothing left to object to.

[sitetest]

Dear smevin,

You have evinced ignorance concerning the validity of sacraments. When asked,

"What are Orthodox priests and bishops doing?"

You answered:

"I have no idea what they are doing."


If you really have no idea, then you are in ignorance. It isn't insulting your intelligence to point that out.

In my own limited view, I see two possibilities: Either, you really are ignorant of this stuff; or you're pretending.

If you really are ignorant about these matters, you've been given good, quick answers. Charitably. More in-depth material is available to you on the web.

If you are merely pretending, then you're just playing games, and being tendentious. Which is not very charitable on your part. And I'm uninterested.


sitetest

[RobbyS]

I am not sure what you mean by "normal" Yes, we have seen quite a bit of iconoclasm in the last thirty years, and you are perfectly justified in trying to correct the excesses of the "image-breakers." Not all of it was done for theological reasons. Much of it came about because priests did not like gothic or Italian forms and when given the power to decorate, went to extremes. They were like nouveaux-riche who want to be "modern" but have no taste. Some of that is being corrected,

[Desdemona]

Much of it came about because priests did not like gothic or Italian forms and when given the power to decorate, went to extremes. They were like nouveaux-riche who want to be "modern" but have no taste.

TNTGTL [trying not to giggle too loudly].

Yep. Some newer, modern churches remind me of "the furniture of bachelorhood" - no class whatsoever.

[sitetest]

Dear smevin,

LOL. You chide me about charity, and then deliver an insult:

"Your views do appear to be quite limited. Thanks for acknowledging that."

In any case, you're welcome. I try to limit my views to what the Catholic Church teaches.

By the way, I just noticed that you're new here. Signed up just today. Congratulations, and welcome to FR.

In time, you may come to recognize that your behavior here on this thread today looks a lot like something called "trolling". You will also find that there is no moral obligation binding on any poster to treat trolls as gently as you have thus far been treated here.

So, if you wish to engage in trolling, and others beat you around the metaphorical head for it, you oughtn't go whining about charity.

You may consider that a little charitable advice. ;-)


sitetest

[BlackElk]

The perversion of the bishop of Honolulu had nothing to do with the Ratzinger decision directly. It had to do with the excommunication decree issued by Bishop Lavender in the first place as his underlying reason for excommunicating critics. Once more, obsessed as you are, you imagine that if the sun rises in the east it has something to do with your taste obsessions. You are sooooo tiresome and sooooo predictable. You are no doubt delighted along with Zviadist in getting all this attention on the internet that escapes you both in real life. Are your fantasies of relevance being enriched along with your delusions of competence and delusions of continued Catholicism?