An Open Letter to the Church Renouncing My Service on I.C.E.L.

Communicantes (Newsletter of the Society of St. Pius X in Canada) ^ | October 2002 | Rev. Fr. Stephen Somerville

[Zviadist]

Well, not quite. There is a schism. All those consecrated by Mr. Lefebvre are no longer Catholic. All those ordained by Mr. Lefebvre after his excommunication, and by the non-Catholics including Fellay and Williamson, are no longer Catholic, either.

Not according to the Vatican:

LETTER OF THE PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR CHRISTIAN UNITY
Under signature of Edward I. Cardinal Cassidy, President (May 3,1994)
"The situation of the members of this Society [SSPX] is an internal matter of the Catholic Church. The Society is not another Church or Ecclesial Community in the meaning used in the Directory. Of course, the Mass and Sacraments administered by the priests of the Society are valid. The bishops are validly ... consecrated."

LETTER OF THE PONTIFICAL COMMISSION "ECCLESIA DEI"
Under Signature of Msgr. Camille Perl, Secretary
May 28, 1996; repeated in Protocol N. 236/98 of March 6, 1998

"It is true that participation in the Mass and sacraments at the chapels of the Society of St. Pius X does not of itself constitute 'formal adherence to the schism.'"

So why do you continue to lie about the status of the SSPX?

[Zviadist]

They were excommunicated for assisting at SSPX Masses? How? There was no SSPX chapel there. At best they hired SSPX priests to freelance for them from time to time, hardly the same thing

Oh my, I guess that changes everything!!! This hair-splitting over inconsequential parts of the story is getting pretty pathetic. Another of your lawyerly tricks? Sorry, this is not your courtroom.

I don’t approve of this Bishop, of what he did with the excommunications, or of his personal “disgusting activities” as you say.

So what the hell are you going on about, anyway?

[Zviadist]

But we also note that this does not represent a vindication of the non-Catholic SSPX.

Once again you blatantly disregard and disobey the explicit ruling of the Vatican:

LETTER OF THE PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR CHRISTIAN UNITY
Under signature of Edward I. Cardinal Cassidy, President (May 3,1994)
"The situation of the members of this Society [SSPX] is an internal matter of the Catholic Church. The Society is not another Church or Ecclesial Community in the meaning used in the Directory. Of course, the Mass and Sacraments administered by the priests of the Society are valid. The bishops are validly ... consecrated."

It is kind of funny how you and your buddies constantly accuse us of disobeying the Vatican while your disobedience is blatant and continuous. The Vatican rules one way and you simply spit on its position. Odd.

[RobbyS]

The vernacular liturgy succeeds the Latin liturgy just as the Latin succeeded the Greek in the 3rd Century and the Russian succeeded the Greek in the 10th Century. It is unfortunate that our American English litugy is so banal. Compare it with the Book of Common Prayer, which is one of the great works of English literature. It badly needs a master hand to save it from t committee speak.

[Snuffington]

The vernacular liturgy succeeds the Latin liturgy just as the Latin succeeded the Greek in the 3rd Century and the Russian succeeded the Greek in the 10th Century.

Can the vernacular, which is by its nature local, fluid, and ever-changing, properly capture something as permanent and unchanging as the Mass for more than an instant?

I don't ask this as someone raised in the Latin Mass. The only language I know is English. Yet it seems a frail vessel for so great an object. Particularly when one desires "vernacular" English, which isn't truly the same all over the English speaking world today, let alone over the centuries.

The Book of Common Prayer was in English, but surely not the "vernacular" English of the day. And especially not the vernacular English of those that used it down the centuries.

Do I hate the vernacular, or find it inappropriate to all prayer? Certainly not. Some of the most sincere and personal of all prayer is undoubtedly offered to God in vernacular form, and no less precious to Him for it. I simply wonder if the proper tool is being applied to the particular work that is the Mass.

[ultima ratio]

The lack of poetry is the least of its faults. The New Mass in the vernacular or in Latin is objectively blasphemous.

[ultima ratio]

If you read the letter of the Honolulu bishop closely you will see Mrs. Morley was being castigated for "impugning the Roman missal" of 1970 and causing confusion and scandal by aligning herself with SSPX. What else is this but a reference to her preference for the traditional Mass said by the SSPX? She had received prior warnings about her attendance at these "illicit" Masses. It is clear the "excommunication" was intended in part to punish her for these actions which the bishop considered schismatic. He was as wrong as you are.

[Catholicguy]

After 12 years of Catholic school, they had been so misguided that it's difficult to get through to them with authentic Catholic teaching. Well, isn't that interesting. You and your ilk blame the Pope for EVERYTHING that happens. However, when it comes to YOUR kids being badly educated, YOU are not to blame. Oh no. It is the fault of the school.

Mull that one over for awhile before you blame the Pope next time<>

[Catholicguy]

http://home.earthlink.net/~grossklas/morrison.htm

<> That is a link to "Fr. Morrison" the guy who runs traditio.Amasing, these clowns reject the authority of the Pope but treat info from this nutball as Gospel<>

[Zviadist]

As I have said, when you have nothing to add relevant to the argument, you attack the character of the person delivering the information. The slanderer who runs your little home-grown website is a hell of a lot less credible than that which appears on traditio or similar established websites. But you don't care: you are desperate to draw attention away from the fact that you cannot refute the information presented. Pathetic.

[Catholicguy]

<> Thanks for running that one down. EVERY Time we check out one of Ultima's claims, it is proved to be made-up or a badly mangled form of what really occured.

WE all know that won't stop him. He'll just plow on attacking the Pope and reposting the same old "facts" that have repeatedly been shown to have been lies

It kinda makes one wonder why drstevej is so supportive of him :)<>

[ultima ratio]

Trent instituted reforms under the leadership of the Society of Jesus. Vatican II did just the opposite. Instead of reforms it unleashed a torrent of disorienting changes accompanied by corruption and apostasy. I'm not saying there were no fallen priests before the Council. But the moral standards back then were much higher generally and the number of scandals were minimal. Faith was strong. This is not true today and the floodgates have been opened. In more than forty years not a single real reform has come out of Rome--just slogans and promises. First we were to Catch the Spirit, then we were to Prepare for the Jubilee, now it's the Reform of the Reform. All a lot of hooey and public relations. Yet the corruption has been systemic.

Meanwhile let me tell you what's going on at the ground level. Bishops are pushing their values-neutral sex education agenda--complete with graphic discussions of condom use and anal and oral sex, as well as sado-masochism and homosexuality--in parochial schools. When parents protest to Rome, nothing happens. Priests continue to play around openly and scandalously--with other priests. The gay agenda is alive and well. This is plain old pharisaism, hypocrisy burdening the people. I'm still holding my breath waiting for that "draft" proposal to be finalized prohibiting gays from becoming candidates for the priesthood. Wanna bet it never happens?

[ultima ratio]

Does anything ever come out of your mouth that isn't a put-down of somebody?

[ultima ratio]

When it comes to "nutballs" read your own posts. They qualify you big time.

[Catholicguy]

<> LOL Good idea to change the subject. You were just unmasked, again, trying to pass off lies as facts.

Do you ever stop and become embarassed at being publicly proven a liar?<>

[ultima ratio]

Maybe drstevej is supportive because he can tell the difference between your b.s. and my truth.

[Catholicguy]

I rest my case.

<> Stop teasing<>

[Catholicguy]

. The New Mass in the vernacular or in Latin is objectively blasphemous

<> LOL don't hold back :)<>

[ultima ratio]

Read my reply 482 before you jump to "nutball" conclusions once again.

[drstevej]

***It kinda makes one wonder why drstevej is so supportive of him :)***

Maybe the thought of Hula Masses is too mind blowing. :0)

Actually, I neither agree with ultima's views or have I researched the basis of his conclusions (before reading these threads I would have thought a NO Mass was one done in the French Quarter).

Where I identify with UR is his concern that his religious core beliefs not be eroded by an ecumenical urge to relate to people at the expense of doctrine.

It would seem to me that if 60%+ of RCs either do not understand or do not believe the Real Presence (and I get that number from reading these threads) that the wisest course would be to keep that doctrine central in the Mass. I do not believe the doctrine, but if I did I would want that fact communicated as clearly and unmistakeably as possible. This is what I hear UR arguing.

Please no flames. You asked.