An Open Letter to the Church Renouncing My Service on I.C.E.L.

Communicantes (Newsletter of the Society of St. Pius X in Canada) ^ | October 2002 | Rev. Fr. Stephen Somerville

[BlackElk]

If I remember correctly, the couple are the ministers of the sacrament of marriage and the priest witnesses the marriage but does not administer the sacrament.

[Loyalist]

A lot of the newer music can't be sung by basso either--at least I never could.

[Desdemona]

A lot of the newer music can't be sung by basso either--at least I never could.

Oooo... too low? Too bad?

I'm a soprano, but my low notes are huge for a soprano, and at my old parish, the organist would put it all down two keys. I'm sorry, low A's at 8 am aren't going to be loud. That's part of why I quit cantoring.

Honestly, though, it's a bit insulting, not just to musicians, but the congregation, to force juvenille tunes on a captive audience. That just doesn't fit the majesty that's supposed to be there.

[BlackElk]

The SSPX professes filial devotion and loyalty to Pope John Paul II?????? After all of the disrespect, disobedience, impertinence and impudence expressed by SSPXers here, either you guys are not very good examples of SSPX or you and it are being quite disingenuous.

[BlackElk]

Just to show I can too be even handed, I state total agreement with each and every word of this post of yours. I would add that there was nothing irreverent about saying the rosary at Mass. The priest said the Mass. The altar BOYS responded on behalf of the people. Missals existed with translations on facing pages and descriptions of choreography to keep people aware of where in the Mass the priest was. People knew the meaning of the consecration and conducted themselves accordingly and the magnificent Latin language caused no one to have boils but rather provided some precious respite, peace and quiet in an unquiet world. AND no one got the notion that the laity were some sort of equivalent of the priest, lifting their hands up, grabbing at each other and generally Kumbayaing their way through ever stranger rubrics. Valid, yes, but very often a liturgical toothache nonetheless.

[heyheyhey]

It always amuses me when folks claim to be so holy and faithful Catholics that they can judge and disrespect the Holy Father.

[BlackElk]

Perhaps, that's perhaps, not but the priest who says your Mass is as is the "bishop" who ordained him if it was in the SSPX.

[BlackElk]

Like the dwindling crew of AmChurch liberals, you must be soooo offended by the conservatism of the rising generation. And yet, you imagine that the termites' progress of the last several decades cannot be reversed. Oh, yes it can AND yes it will.

[Catholicguy]

<> Thanks, Patent. Only a schismatic could contend against that. And we both know they will, endlessly ... schism 24/7<>

[Catholicguy]

<> O schismatic, where is thy sting?

Patent has, once again, cleaned your clock and you and your ilk are reduced to posting the arguements of individual canonists against the supreme power of the Pope. I think the entire exercise incredibly funny. Even the Protestants on these threads know that what the Pope decides goes. They are more traditional, in that sense, than you and your ilk.<>

[Catholicguy]

<> A.C. is not over her head. She is on solid ground and in Union with the Pope. You, however, have walked the plank off the Barque of Peter and you are drowning in your schism and as you head down for the third time, you issue inane disquisitions about the Captain of the Ark of Salvation

And when the Captain sends out the lifeboats, you carp the boats are insufficiently varnished and you refuse to climb aboard. It really is pathetic you think yourself intellectually superior to others; even the Pope. Pride is the anchor that will drag you down....<>

[Catholicguy]

We are talking about a new faith here, when taking all of this to its logical conclusion -- a move away from God and toward Man. I cannot speak for the King of Kings, but somehow I don't think this is what he had in mind for us. I think the decayed fruits of Vatican II are evidence enough of this displeasure

<> Do you foilks EVER stop and think about the consequences of your self-serving statements? You say that The King of Kings is displeased with Vatican II "decayed fruits".

That being so, you have to accept that he was REALLY angry at you trad-clowns and so He let Vatican II happen.

Your "logic" cuts both ways<>

[Catholicguy]

I don't think you are stupid at all--.... But the mysticism is gone, the sense of the sacred which was palpable when you walked inside any church before 1970. In its place is this mundane humanism hardly distinguishable from the platform of the Democratic Party....

<> Speaking of stupid....<>

[sitetest]

Dear BlackElk,

To you and the others that I've pinged, my compliments. I have virtually nothing to add to this conversation as you, and other Catholics, have said all that can be said.

I've bookmarked this thread to my profile page, as it once again gives folks the opportunity to see the complete refutation of the schismatic position, again.

As to the status of laity who assist at illicit schismatic SSPX Masses, I believe that the relevant documents from the Church indicate that though assistance, per se, isn't schismatic, it is generally gravely sinful, and frequent assistance at these Masses by schismatics leads to a schismatic mentality, thus leading, ultimately, to schismatic status.

This result, sadly, is quite clear in the postings of some posters here.

It may be helpful if you were to once again tell us the peculiar circumstances that led to the reversal of the excommunication of the Hawaii laypeople. As we've already seen, at least one poster here doesn't even have a basic understanding of the nature of excommunication. Perhaps others are deficient in knowledge about this particular case. The schismatics cite this case until they are blue in the face, but never ever reveal the particular circumstances that make this case the exception, not the rule.


sitetest

[Catholicguy]

BTW, you guys better be pushing the Unabomber-loving Williamson to make peace with John Paul II; an Italian Pope is likely to tell your little sect to wander in the wilderness

<> True enough. If these clowns had the sort of "traditional" Pope they appear to desire, the entire lot of 'em would have been excommunicated LONG ago.<>

[ultima ratio]

When you bookmark, include the article that began this thread: a renunciation by one who served on ICEL, complete with fulsome praise for SSPX. I'm amused by those who think they've refuted the iron logic of the traditionalist position, which is essentially this: nobody, not even a pope, can replace true Catholicism with ersatz Catholicism and get away with it. Pretty soon the faith collapses--as it is doing all over the planet.

[Desdemona]

Like the dwindling crew of AmChurch liberals, you must be soooo offended by the conservatism of the rising generation.

There are a lot of people who were in their early 20's and teen years when Vatican II went through who are quite disgusted with the younger generation who are far more conservative. People who ask questions like, and just exactly why are we throwing away some of the most glorious music ever written? And I'm seeing a lot of families of people just older than me with 4-7 kids. That's a switch. The ones just older than them have 2, three at the most, with a few exceptions.

I do think that Mass totally in Latin all the time will not come completely back. There is a trend in the music anyway to at least put the Kyrie, Gloria, Sanctus, and Angus Dei in Greek and Latin - and it's catching on quite well. I've heard no objections other than the usual suspects, and they haven't even been that loud. The Credo...I don't know. That might not go over so well. But, I do think there will be daily Mass in the Vernacular. Latin will make a bit of a comeback, but there will be a balance. And the language definitely needs to be tightened up.

[ultima ratio]

What do you mean WILL be excommunicated? Are you finally conceding we are NOT now excommunicated--that your past posts to the contrary were lies? Anyway I can't see why you guys get so exercised about schism and excommunication when you spend all your time praising the Pope for hugging mullahs and witchdoctors and for telling them and how wonderful their religions are.

And by the way, while we're at it, if Patent cleaned my clock, how is it he is silent on the numbers for SSPX which I presented as 1 million and which he claimed were phony. Has he finally read the article that began this thread which cites the same number--as well as double the number for priests--which Patent also got wrong? You guys are laughable, fumbling all over yourselves in an effort to be coherent while still hurling slanders.

[Catholicguy]

How old are you? Sacred Heart Cathedral in Dallas at an early-morning Sunday Mass was crawling with senoras in tilmas making Novenas, saying the Stations, and praying to La Virgen de Guadalupe.

<> Look, facts and ultima are often incompatible. Everyone else knows that here. Don't be surprised.

The fact is that the old Liturgy ( I grew up with it)was every bit as banal as the new Liturgy is alleged to be. I never knew what the heck was going on. Me and my friends just went cause we had to. I don't think things have changed that much.

What is different is the Mass is being used to divide - the pure "traditionalists" from the moronic, Pope-worshipping riff-raff who go to the Pauline Rite who have been duped into following a false religion. The Mass is being used by the Neo-Donatists as a polemic against what the self-annointed Catholic Puritans satanically assert is a revolutionary Church abandoned by the Holy Spirit who let it be led into error by revolutionary Popes intent on destroying all traditon.

The sulphurous schismatics think themselves a cut above all others. They aren't. They are fetid protestant partisans who are slaves of Satan.<>

[Catholicguy]

He gets it wrong quite a lot--

<> That is how a "traditionalist" thinks about the Pope?

Quit picking on Dad.<>