Church still attracting converts: CHN at record levels

The Wanderer ^ | 10/10/02 | Paul Likoudis

[OLD REGGIE]

But but but but, how can this be? Didn't she have 6 or 7 other children besides Jesus? Wasn't James, the Brother of the Lord alive?

But but but but but, how can you make this argument? You know full well they didn't believe in him, let alone that John was the only one there.

John 7:
[5] For even his brothers did not believe in him.

[pegleg]

Even Paul and Peter disagreed with one another.

Paul rebuked Peter for behavior. They did not disagree over doctrine.

[SoothingDave]

Well, "most" doesn't mean "all." I fully realize that I read the Word in the context of my faith.

I am truly glad to hear this. It is a vital step in realizing the full economy of salvation, the entire gift which God has left us.

If someone were to convince me successfully that the Catholic Church was the authoritative interpreter of Scripture, then I would have to change my context. No one has convinced me yet.

Rather than looking out at the Catholic Church, perhaps at this point you would do best to look in at what formed and motivates this faith you have, which provides the context to your Scripture reading. Where did it come from? How was it formed?

Always" is an exaggeration. And even in the Bible, the individual Christians disagreed often. Even Paul and Peter disagreed with one another.

The early Christians were able to come to a consensus. It is this lack which I cite among sola scriptura Christians today.

SD

[SoothingDave]

But but but but but, how can you make this argument? You know full well they didn't believe in him, let alone that John was the only one there.

I think we can tell from Jewish custom and practice that failure to believe your brother is the Messiah does not free you from your obligation to take care of your parents.

SD

[xzins]

Just go to Guthrie's reviews of both the old and new testaments. He gives the history of each book and of the historical validation that caused each to be accepted by the various churches.

It is far too long a subject to put on this site. I'll see if there's some link out there to take you to.

[OLD REGGIE]

The words were “Woman, behold thy son”. And it was Christ addressing Mary.

Catholics view “behold thy mother” as Jesus commissioning His mother to be the Mother of all Christians, and by giving her to John who personifies the Christian people, He commands us to accept her as our own mother.

Matthew 12:
[48] But he replied to the man who told him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?"
[49] And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers!

Many mothers, many brothers.

[pseudo-justin]

The principle of sola scriptura IS one of those extra-scriptural principles that affects how we read the text.

I am glad that you admit that "sola scriptura" is an extra-scriptural prinicpal. In other words, it is not God's own word that that Scripture alone is the rule of faith, it is not God's own word that all that is necessary to be believed for salvation is found in scripture. Rather, this prinicple, "sola scriptura", is a principle of human reason. It certainly is not self-evident, and I cannot think of any really obvious truths from which to deduce it. So why believe it, why use it as your lens, as you admittedly do?

I, on the other hand, recognize that I have a tradition, but I am confident that both the tradition from which I learn to understand Scripture aright and the Scriptures themselves proceed from God -- Jesus Christ brought both into being. I believe that both the Scripture and the tradition are from God for because grace unveiled for me the divine origin of the Catholic Church's kerygma, and included within the Catholic Church's kerygma is a self-description of how the Church and her members form their beliefs. I assented, in a non-inferential way, to the Church's kerygma -- its proclamation of Jesus Christ-- and included within the proclamation of Christ is the claim that "Jesus Christ left us, His Church, the Scriptures, which we understand in light of the sacred tradition He intitated with the apostles, with the service provided by the Magisterium that He established". I assent to the Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and Magisterium, all at once, without dividing them from each other according to my own thinking, because I think I have a better plan for Christianity. I assent to them at the same time that I assent to Chrict as Lord and savior. In assenting to Christ I assent to His Church and vice-versa. Thank God...

[Tantumergo]

"I'll see if there's some link out there to take you to."

Thanks! :)

[SoothingDave]

Many mothers, many brothers.

Are you suggesting, then, that the Apostle John, after the Crucifixion, took in a great crowd of people and cared for them?

Of course not.

Many verses, many interpretations.

SD

[OLD REGGIE]

I am sorry if I have harmed you, but I do not apologize for calling selfishness what it is. You said something incredibly selfish and I identified it. That you used such a statement to cut off any discussion of the role of the saints shows you have some way to go.

Typical SoothingDave "Christian Love" at work. As a matter of fact, you once again turned a personal attack into a general attack on "Protestants". (Something you consistently deny).

(SD) We see on parade here the utter selfishness of the Protestant position. We envision a communion, a family, of all Christians, all Members of the Body. We care about one another.

Only the Pope and you call themselves "we" and you are both wrong. You; however, are also supremely arrogant.

[SoothingDave]

Typical SoothingDave "Christian Love" at work. As a matter of fact, you once again turned a personal attack into a general attack on "Protestants". (Something you consistently deny).

Only the Pope and you call themselves "we" and you are both wrong. You; however, are also supremely arrogant.

Is this how you show your "Christian love?" Nice, Mr. Kettle.

For the record, when Protestants show their selfishness, I call a spade a spade.

SD

[xzins]

Guthrie reviews, click

I couldn't find anything that summarized Guthrie. There's some reviews on this amazon link.

This is just the NT, but that's our basic discussion, really. His book gives a thorough historical review of each NT book.

[LibertyGirl77]

***I am glad that you admit that "sola scriptura" is an extra-scriptural prinicpal. In other words, it is not God's own word that that Scripture alone is the rule of faith, it is not God's own word that all that is necessary to be believed for salvation is found in scripture. Rather, this prinicple, "sola scriptura", is a principle of human reason. It certainly is not self-evident, and I cannot think of any really obvious truths from which to deduce it. So why believe it, why use it as your lens, as you admittedly do?***

Well, it is a little disingenuous to suggest that all that is necessary to be believed for salvation is not contained in the Bible. The authors laid out clearly what one must do to be "saved." Most importantly, Jesus's message was one of salvation, and is laid out in detail in the Gospel books.

I believe in the Reformation and Sola Scriptura because I believe the men who led the Catholic Church during that time were corrupted by their incredible sociopolitical power and perverted the message of Christ for their own personal gain. That's not to say that all Catholics today are corrupt or trying to pervert the Word of God -- but it does make me wary of allowing mere sinful men to interpret God's Word for me, and, based on those interpretations, create entire authoritative doctrines that I must follow.

[OLD REGGIE]

Which Bible do you read? - the word "Pope" appears everywhere!! But most pertinently it occurs in the passage of scripture which Jesus took as the context for His institution of Peter as the first Pope of the new Davidic Kingdom - "Pope" means "Father". I think you will find the concept of fatherhood sprinkled rather liberally throughout scripture.

Yes, and Jesus told us who to call "Father". In order to forestall the anticipated argument; no, I never called my father "Holy Father".

Matthew 23:
[9] And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.

[pegleg]

Only the Pope and you call themselves "we" and you are both wrong. You; however, are also supremely arrogant.

Good grief why are you always in such a sour mood? How about providing the documentation I requested in post 179 so we can discuss how the paths of Protestantism and Catholicism have diverged at various points in history, but not all at once.

[OLD REGGIE]

Yes, the Beatitudes do model Christian behavior, in exactly the same way Mary does. Are you trying to make some point?

Only to those who believe Mary is the one and only "Blessed".

[SoothingDave]

I believe in the Reformation and Sola Scriptura because I believe the men who led the Catholic Church during that time were corrupted by their incredible sociopolitical power and perverted the message of Christ for their own personal gain.

Interesting. So the fact that the Church was successful in the world, led it to become corrupt. Is that what you are saying?

That's not to say that all Catholics today are corrupt or trying to pervert the Word of God -- but it does make me wary of allowing mere sinful men to interpret God's Word for me, and, based on those interpretations, create entire authoritative doctrines that I must follow.

Excepting yourself, of course.

SD

[SoothingDave]

Only to those who believe Mary is the one and only "Blessed".

Who would that be? That Mary is blessed is a given. That she is the only one is not.

What we object to is the fatuous Scriptural interpretations that believe simultaneously that Mary will be called blessed by all generations and that Jesus was dissing her later in the same Scripture. "Yeah, yeah, she's my mom, but y'all are really my mom and brothers."

Or the equally disturbing claim that this woman, blessed by all ages, is referred to later in Scripture as "the other Mary."

SD

[LibertyGirl77]

***For the record, when Protestants show their selfishness, I call a spade a spade.***

I must say, taking one thing I said out of context and using it to paint all Protestants as utterly and inherently selfish does sort of qualify as a "general attack." If you want to bash me, go ahead, but don't bash my Christian brothers and sisters just because I was careless with my choice of words.

[pegleg]

Yes, and Jesus told us who to call "Father". In order to forestall the anticipated argument; no, I never called my father "Holy Father".

Matthew 23:8 “ But you are not to be called ‘rabbi,’ for you have one teacher, and you are all brethren.”

So we’re not to call anyone teacher either huh? A proper understanding of the scripture would help. Christ was using hyperbole to show the scribes and Pharisees how sinful and proud they were for not looking humbly to God as the source of all authority and fatherhood and teaching, and instead setting themselves up as the ultimate authorities, father figures, and teachers.